Why is Arcane Magic better than Psionics?

[gallagher]

i guess the title says it all, why are wizards better than psions? are sorcerors, then, also better than wilders?

also, do psions have a counter-power ability, like how arcanists can counter-spell?

[kamikasei]

More and more abusable spells than powers, wizards can amass more of them and change them daily, low-level spells autoscale, metamagic is more abusable than metapsionics because the latter has the psionic focus cost; those are the main points.

also, do psions have a counter-power ability, like how arcanists can counter-spell?

You can't counterpower a psion, but I think a psion can counterspell an arcanist using dispel psionics. And because of the flexibility of augmentation, they can actually do it pretty well.

[Cuaqchi]

In most cases, arcane spells are more powerful than their psionic equivilants.

However, if the powers were equal in strength to spells, psions would be far and away more powerful than wizards as the flexibility in manipulation of one's Power Points makes conservation and approriate use of force far easier than the Vancian fire and forget system. As a result giving greater range of power and less restriction on when/how it is used.

[2xMachina]

Also, Psion is more like a stronger Sorc. It does not have unlimited powers known.

Wilder is an even more limited Sorc.

[Optimystik]

There are rules for countering powers in Hyperconscious. Third party, but it's written by Bruce Cordell, the mastermind behind the XPH.

[Coplantor]

What happens if we consider the Erudite?

[Ecalsneerg]

What happens if we consider the Erudite?

Do you refer to the Spell-to-Power Erudite? It's not strong due to being psionic. It's strong due to being an Archivist on crack.

[Optimystik]

The normal Erudite is about equal with a Psion. More Powers Known, but the UPD is severely limiting early on. The free psicrystal is a very nice touch though.

Sadly, no Autohypnosis

[Coplantor]

UPD power depends if you play by the table or by the text, as far as I understand, the text makes it ridiculously powerful.

[SaintRidley]

More support, generally more abusable results of said support.

Main reasons, in my mind.

[gallagher]

Do you refer to the Spell-to-Power Erudite? It's not strong due to being psionic. It's strong due to being an Archivist on crack.

is spell-to-power erudite an ACF? and if so where can i find it?

and how do you figure that it is an archivist on crack?

[2xMachina]

When you know all the Psionic powers + Discipline and Arcane and Divine, 11 UPD per spell lvl is still probably isn't all that much. :P

is spell-to-power erudite an ACF? and if so where can i find it?

and how do you figure that it is an archivist on crack?

Web expansion: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

You can learn Arcane spells as powers. And some cheese lets you take divine ones too (people with Divine as Arcane spells).

You now know all magic.

(Also, like Mantled for full Magic Transparency. Hello breakage.)

However, you need a ton of XP to learn them all (mostly because there's so damn many spells)

[Optimystik]

An StP Erudite unfortunately can't learn 9th-level spells until Epic, because he can only learn spells below his maximum power-level.

But he's broken the game long before that - getting infinite power points with Mental Pinnacle, or tossing out Forcecages free of charge.

When you know all the Psionic powers + Discipline and Arcane and Divine, 11 UPD per spell lvl is still probably isn't all that much. :P

If your DM goes with that interpretation, he deserves what he gets.

[2xMachina]

An StP Erudite unfortunately can't learn 9th-level spells until Epic, because he can only learn spells below his maximum power-level.

Teleport through time.

I send my Epic Thrall Erudite back in time to Psychic Chirurgery all lvl 9 spells to me. Also, Thought Bottle to help XP.

Heck, do it on your lvl 1 erudite. I'm lvl 1 with an Epic Thrall!

(Expect the DM to throw books at you).

[Amphetryon]

More support for the casting style, and a mechanic that tends to promote more endurance than psions, combine to make arcane generally superior, all else being equal.

[sreservoir]

Teleport through time.

I send my Epic Thrall Erudite back in time to Psychic Chirurgery all lvl 9 spells to me. Also, Thought Bottle to help XP.

Heck, do it on your lvl 1 erudite. I'm lvl 1 with an Epic Thrall!

(Expect the DM to throw books at you).

you could probably pull off psicrystal leadership shenanigans for this, too.

[Godskook]

By 'better', I assume you mean more broken? It isn't by much, if at all, really. The Psion is tier 2, which is tier 1 powerful, but with limited scope.

[sreservoir]

By 'better', I assume you mean more broken? It isn't by much, if at all, really. The Psion is tier 2, which is tier 1 powerful, but with limited scope.

well, even the non-StP erudite can be game-breakingly powerful. it's just harder than for wizards, due to lack of as many choices.

[Trekkin]

In my humble and fragmented opinion, the power gap between arcane and psionics increases in direct proportion to the number of supplements used. Core spells are indeed more broken than XPH powers, but every additional book adds new spells, while few add new powers. Thus, if you want to run a campaign in setting X where standing still for more than five seconds lights your ears on fire, there is probably a spell they added to prevent that, but not a power.

This gets even worse in third-party material, where you have entire books of nothing but new spells for specific schools and perhaps a single book dealing with all things psionic.

In short, arcane magic gets MUCH better than psionics when you allow more books, and they stay competitive if you limit the books used to a minimum. Of course, those limits can mean psionics players get really creative with the powers they have...and really bruised from the books thrown at them in response.

[Optimystik]

Psionic powers are better at some things - like time travel, as previously noted. Also, not being counterable, not requiring components, suffering no failure chance in armor, and being designed for a more modular points-system.

While you can make up the difference in lists by researching powers (that are identical to the spells you want to copy,) researching spells that mimic powers will still at least require a component to cast, thereby having at least that inherent limitation.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Divine is better than both combined. Divine is the ultimatum. An archivist thats 20th level will ALWAYS beat a wizard of the same level. A Favored Soul 20 will always beat a Sorcerer 20. How? Healing spells, and real class features.

[Starbuck_II]

Divine is better than both combined. Divine is the ultimatum. An archivist thats 20th level will ALWAYS beat a wizard of the same level. A Favored Soul 20 will always beat a Sorcerer 20. How? Healing spells, and real class features.

What about Wings of cover for a funny:no!

FS: Destruction!
Sorceror: Power Word No! (wings of cover)

Really, Sorcerors can beat FS.
Cleric are the harder one due to turning feats (DSP, DMM, Champion Devotion feats, etc).

Edit: I meant Wings of cover

[Optimystik]

Divine is better than both combined. Divine is the ultimatum. An archivist thats 20th level will ALWAYS beat a wizard of the same level.

I can see your argument from a base class perspective, but arcane does tend to get the better PrCs, and ACFs.

A Favored Soul 20 will always beat a Sorcerer 20. How? Healing spells, and real class features.

I disagree here; Favored Souls are decent at healing, but MADness means they'll either have very weak magic, or blow through it much too quickly. A Sorcerer meanwhile only has to focus on one stat.

@ Starbuck - I think you mean Wings of Cover there.

[Claudius Maximus]

I think I could probably beat an Archivist with a Cerebromancer. The action advantage from both powers and spells is very potent in pvp.

[Optimystik]

I think I could probably beat an Archivist with a Cerebromancer. The action advantage from both powers and spells is very potent in pvp.

That Archivist can do the same to you, with Archivist/Psion/Psychic Theurge.

In fact, they get even more action abuse thanks to Battle Blessing powering their heals and dispels.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

I think I could probably beat an Archivist with a Cerebromancer. The action advantage from both powers and spells is very potent in pvp.

Right... Go ahead and use 7th level spells and powers, while I use 9th level divine spells. Seems underpowered, eh?

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

That Archivist can do the same to you, with Archivist/Psion/Psychic Theurge.

I concour. and, this is a powerful combo, being as how Archivist has every spell in the books. Although personally, I'd go with a Spell-to-Power Erudite on the other side

[Claudius Maximus]

You said divine was better than arcane and psionic combined. If the Archivist has access to all the wizard spells, then he's using arcane, as far as I'm concerned. If he's a Psychic Theurge, then he's not just divine anymore.

At any rate, I agree that an Archivist with access to any spell has a bit of an edge over the Wizard, and retract my challenge if that's the case.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

You said divine was better than arcane and psionic combined. If the Archivist has access to all the wizard spells, then he's using arcane, as far as I'm concerned. If he's a Psychic Theurge, then he's not just divine anymore.

At any rate, I agree that an Archivist with access to any spell has a bit of an edge over the Wizard, and retract my challenge if that's the case.

Archivist has spells off the Wizard's, Bard's, Paladin's, Cleric's, Druid's, Assassin's, and all others in his list.

[Optimystik]

For the record, I don't think Divine beats Arcane/Psionic combined. Combining two systems is generally superior to one, unless one of them is Truenaming.

But a straight Archivist vs. a Cerebremancer of equal level will have a bit of an edge due to class features and higher-level spells. The right powers (e.g. Synchronicity) can offset this. It's a bit too complicated to tell.