[4e] Skill Challenges

[Guinea Anubis]

So lets talk a little about skill challenges and how you handle them in your games. Since I am always trying to become a better DM and I feel I am still a little week when it comes to running a good skill challenges I wanted to ask how you all handle them.

[Human Paragon 3]

I think skill challenges work best when players don't know they are in one. They just have an objective and do whatever they can to meet it. You get them to announce their intent and then ask for the proper skill checks, and track their successes and failures.

Remember that failing out of a skill challenge shouldn't mean they can't progress, just that complications arise.

[AlterForm]

From the Wizards boards:

Best one I've been in was the Madness Sinkhole one from the PHB3 Game Day, and it was technically run incorrectly.

I'm not sure if my DM did it intentionally, but instead of the party accrueing successes and failures as a whole, each member had their own SC tracker. This meant that characters were forced to use non-optimal skills for their characters (since any given round only allowed 1 or 2 skills per character). With the reduced DCs and 3-failure model, only half the party actually failed their SC; it managed to soak 1-3 Healing Surges off the winners and 2-5 off the losers, but we had a great time RPing the consequences of, say, the Battlemind failing a stealth check. If I had to run it again myself, I'd allow 2 rolls per round for allowed skills to allow a little more leeway.

Otherwise, the SCs I've been in and run have been forgettable. I'm probably going to adopt the roll-for-allowed-skills method when I run a SC as an encounter on its own.

In a nutshell, consider two things:
1) Forcing players to use non-optimal skills. Beware removing too much choice.
2) Applying damage or some other form of penalty on failures or Failure. Beware making the punishment too harsh.

[valadil]

I did an open ended skill challenge last week. I had no skills planned out ahead of time. The players told me what they wanted to do and how they wanted to use their skills. I let them know if it worked or not. The whole time I kept track of their successes and failures. After the session I went back and figured out how difficult it was and what the reward should be. IMO it was the best skill challenge I ever ran.

Before that one, my SCs ran into the trap of being glorified obstacle courses. 8 skill checks run in a row with a little flavor text between them. They weren't terribly interesting.

But they did keep the game moving. One downside of the open ended one was that the action was a little low. Players planned out their attack, but didn't act on it for quite some time. Next time I do an SC I'll keep it 75% open ended, but have a few challenges in my back pocket in case the game slows down.

[BobTheDog]

I love using group rolls (DMG2, everyone has to roll and at least X people have to succeed for it to count as a success). Works wonders for those "oooo, lemme try that too!" skills like Perception or Intimidate. Also beatiful when the whole group needs to do something together (Athletics for climbing or Endurance for hostile environments) as part of the challenge.

Another thing I've been doing is "in-challenge consequences". If they fail their Endurance check to cross the swamp, they'll have to find shelter for the night in there, so Nature DC increases to hard (or a Nature roll is required where none would be).

[Aron Times]

What you need to remember is that a skill challenge is an encounter unto itself. A level 1 skill challenge should be as complex and challenging as a level 1 encounter. It also helps to show some visible results for each success.

For example, the first success in a skill challenge to cross a desert (Dark Sun!) might involve finding shelter for rest stops. The second success might allow them to avoid wild animals. The third success lets them find an oasis to quench their thirst. The fourth success keeps them from getting lost, and so on.

In a skill challenge to gain an audience with the local lord, the first success might mean finding the right clothes fit for the court, while successive successes might involve persuading lower-ranking nobles to persuade said lord to grant an audience. Maybe three minor nobles can petition an audience for the party.

[Thajocoth]

A recommendation I have, to increase fluidity of skill challenges, is not to go in with the mindset "They need this many successes before this many failures..." Instead, count successes, count failures, and when it's all over decide retroactively what the complexity of the skill challenge was.

This also lets you toss skill challenges in when the players just decide to do something awesome and unexpected.

[Human Paragon 3]

For example, the first success in a skill challenge to cross a desert (Dark Sun!) might involve finding shelter for rest stops. The second success might allow them to avoid wild animals. The third success lets them find an oasis to quench their thirst. The fourth success keeps them from getting lost, and so on.

So does that mean the first failure involves finding no shelter (loss of healing surge) the second success means being attacked by wild animals (combat encounter) and the third means finding no water and going thirsty (loss of more healing surges) and the 4th gets them lost? What would the consequences of getting lost be? Repeating the challenge?

[Aron Times]

So does that mean the first failure involves finding no shelter (loss of healing surge) the second success means being attacked by wild animals (combat encounter) and the third means finding no water and going thirsty (loss of more healing surges) and the 4th gets them lost? What would the consequences of getting lost be? Repeating the challenge?

First of all, the way you worded your statement is confusing. You're confusing "check" with "failure" and "success." In your statement, the first check fails, resulting in the first failure, while the second check succeeds, resulting in the first success. The third and fourth rolls give you the second and third failures.

Basically, what happened is that the party succeeded in finding shelter or whatever is relevant to the skill used for that success, while the three failures could be represented as a healing surge lost by the entire party.

[rayne_dragon]

I think the best way to run them is to keep them subtle and be open to improvisation. Start with a problem facing the PCs, for example: they need to get in to see a Duke about signing a peace treaty. Then let the players roleplay what they do until they reach an idea that requires a skill check. Continuing the example they might go to the Duke's castle and be denied entrance, then decide that they could bluff their way in, try to intimidate the guards, or wait until nightfall and sneak their way in. Successes show that they make progress towards their goal, failures waste time and might even cause problems that need to be overcome. Ultimately, overall failure should never stall the story, but it should have consequences. Perhaps the PCs fail to bluff or intimidate the guards making them suspicious, then when they fail to sneak in later they are arrested and immediately taken to jail (as opposed to having a chance to talk their way out of it, which they would have had if they hadn't already failed previous checks). This causes them to waste a week in jail before they can get pardoned and speak to the Duke, making them too late to get the treaty signed, thus having their employer's kingdom invaded and loosing out on the reward for the quest. As for being open to improvisation, perhaps one of the characters asks if the Duke happens to be having a party any time soon. You hadn't planned on allowing streetwise for this skill challenge, but it suddenly seems appropriate so you let the players roll to see if they can find about the Duke's extremely posh and selective party and perhaps learn of someone who was invited but is ill, and to be able to get accurate information to make a disguise that will fool the guards, for perhaps a total of two successes towards the challenge and a +2 bonus to future bluff and disguise checks that involve this challenge.

[Guinea Anubis]

Thank you for the help.

I have an idea in my head that I would love for it to work the way I want it to. The Idea I have is this. They have to solve a mystery at a magic school. They are trying to find a student that has gone missing.

Step one - get past the gate guard. I was thinking that they can use Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate or just skip the whole thing and bribe him. If they win this one he will give them a flower to give to the principal's secretary(his girlfriend) and she will give the PCs some info that will give them a +2 on the next skill challenge. If the fail they will just have to bribe him and then not have the flower to give.

Step two - they will have to talk wit the principal and find out what the prob is at the school. Again if they can use Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate. If they win he will give them all the information they need. If they fail he will still let them look around, but only so they can see nothing is wrong and will not give them any information.

Step three - The PCs will have to talk with the teachers and students. Not sure what to do here if they fail Maybe send them to the wrong dorm? If they win they will get all the info they need to get in to the right one of the five dorms to search. I was thinking they could use just about any skill they wanted depending on what teacher they are talking to, like Athletics or Acrobatics for the gym teacher or History or Dungeoneering or the history teacher. Well you get the idea.

Step four - Is going to be searching the the dorm, so I guess Dungeoneering or Perception. Maybe even History after all most kids hide stuff in the same places. If they win they will find the info and get drop on the student cult that is working with the BBEG that kidnapped the student they are looking for. If the fail they will tip them off they they will be ready to jump the PCs.

The last part will be a combat. I was hoping not to tell them that it is a skill challenge or what skills to use, but I have a feeling I may have to prompt them a little to use all there skills.

So what can I do to make this a better skill challenge for my PCs? What pitfalls can I be on the look out for?

[Swordgleam]

So what can I do to make this a better skill challenge for my PCs? What pitfalls can I be on the look out for?

The one thing to look out for: I almost gauranty things won't go in the order you assume. Players are players. Maybe they'll see the guard, and then try to sneak in some other way. Get ready to have other routes into the school prepared, and know what DC you'll set for Stealth checks.

Maybe they'll talk to the principal first, but maybe they'll go to the students. Maybe they'll skip straight to searching the dorms.

Instead of having a linear path, it might work better to know, "These are the things they can do to succeed. They need to do X number of them without screwing up. If they screw up, this happens. If they don't, this other thing happens."

[Guinea Anubis]

The one thing to look out for: I almost gauranty things won't go in the order you assume. Players are players. Maybe they'll see the guard, and then try to sneak in some other way. Get ready to have other routes into the school prepared, and know what DC you'll set for Stealth checks.

Maybe they'll talk to the principal first, but maybe they'll go to the students. Maybe they'll skip straight to searching the dorms.

Instead of having a linear path, it might work better to know, "These are the things they can do to succeed. They need to do X number of them without screwing up. If they screw up, this happens. If they don't, this other thing happens."

damn your right, I am thinking way to linear.