mind fog question

[taltamir]

Mind fog produces a bank of thin mist that weakens the mental resistance of those caught in it. Creatures in the mind fog take a -10 competence penalty on Wisdom checks and Will saves. (A creature that successfully saves against the fog is not affected and need not make further saves even if it remains in the fog.) Affected creatures take the penalty as long as they remain in the fog and for 2d6 rounds thereafter. The fog is stationary and lasts for 30 minutes (or until dispersed by wind).

Ok, aside from making 1 will save only (not 1 per round) or losing 10 to will being a stupid waste of a spell (just use a will save or lose/die spell instead)...

the -10 competence penalty on Wisdom checks intrigues me... What exactly is this supposed to do? does it affect wisdom based skills like survival?

Also, it says will negates... but no description of how often you need to make a will save (every round in the fog? once only? every time you enter the fog?)

[Volthawk]

Personally, I think it's good for if you have, say, a cohort or someone else with crappier DCs than you.

[nyjastul69]

It seems by RAW that a skill check is different than an ability check. There are different descriptions for them. It does state an ability check is essentially the same thing as skill check with 0 ranks, but I don't see where it says a skill check is the same as an ability check with ranks. Should it need to? I think it should affect wis based skill checks. But that's my RAI interpretation.

In regards to the save, only a single save is necessary. You either save and are affected or don't and won't ever be by that particular casting.

Per the PH: A creature that successfully saves against the fog is not affected and need not make further saves even if it remains in the fog.

I may be wrong on the RAW with regards to ability vs. skill checks but the save seems pretty clear.

[PhoenixRivers]

It's useful if you're going to force lots of saves.

For example: many enemies with strong will saves, say 80% pass rate, and 7 of them. Drop a mind fog. Target those that fail with the dominates.

Otherwise, you're right, it's a fairly sub-par spell.

On a side note, it's more efficient than spamming high level will saves vs a captured/trapped foe. Say, Forcecage, followed by a half dozen mind fogs, then start in with the high end stuff, like dominate monster.

It's also fairly useful as a lair debuff, as a trap, but it's not really worth investing combat actions on. Hit up a mind fog trap right before a BBEG encounter, or lieutenant fight, and it can be rather sticky.

[Divide by Zero]

Generally, effects that affect skill and ability checks specify both. For example, the marshal's Motivate Wisdom: "Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks."

[Lord Vukodlak]

Here's a good use of mindfog.

Cast mindfog on a group of foes, followed by a hold person mass, greater command or similar spell. Hold spells allow a new saving throw every round to escape so giving them a huge penalty to their save is certainly helpful.

Say the cleric casts greater command to halt the enemy then the wizard casts mindfog.

The spell also lasts for 30 minutes so you could use the fog effectively when preparing to ambush the enemy, or in a dungeon as a trap.

[PhoenixRivers]

Here's a good use of mindfog.

Cast mindfog on a group of foes, followed by a hold person mass, greater command or similar spell. Hold spells allow a new saving throw every round to escape so giving them a huge penalty to their save is certainly helpful.

Say the cleric casts greater command to halt the enemy then the wizard casts mindfog.

The spell also lasts for 30 minutes so you could use the fog effectively when preparing to ambush the enemy, or in a dungeon as a trap.

If you're doing that, you may as well do it extended. 1 hour's a long time.

[nyjastul69]

Generally, effects that affect skill and ability checks specify both. For example, the marshal's Motivate Wisdom: "Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks."

So my RAI is clearly wrong. They are in fact and in effect different. I hadn't looked at anything outside the DMG and PH. I'm glad they clarified that.

[taltamir]

It's useful if you're going to force lots of saves.

For example: many enemies with strong will saves, say 80% pass rate, and 7 of them. Drop a mind fog. Target those that fail with the dominates.

Otherwise, you're right, it's a fairly sub-par spell.

On a side note, it's more efficient than spamming high level will saves vs a captured/trapped foe. Say, Forcecage, followed by a half dozen mind fogs, then start in with the high end stuff, like dominate monster.

It's also fairly useful as a lair debuff, as a trap, but it's not really worth investing combat actions on. Hit up a mind fog trap right before a BBEG encounter, or lieutenant fight, and it can be rather sticky.

you raise a good point. If you have some really nice single target only will save or lose, the an AoE will save or -10 to will save will hit at least a few of those...
in the example above, one will probably fail and then you target that one with your dominate.

Here's a good use of mindfog.

Cast mindfog on a group of foes, followed by a hold person mass, greater command or similar spell. Hold spells allow a new saving throw every round to escape so giving them a huge penalty to their save is certainly helpful.

Say the cleric casts greater command to halt the enemy then the wizard casts mindfog.

The spell also lasts for 30 minutes so you could use the fog effectively when preparing to ambush the enemy, or in a dungeon as a trap.

also a good use. thank you

So my RAI is clearly wrong. They are in fact and in effect different. I hadn't looked at anything outside the DMG and PH. I'm glad they clarified that.

i was less thinking about RAI and more of "well what the heck is a wisdom check?"

[Lycanthromancer]

One of the better uses of mind fog is to disable a creature that has high magical and mental defenses for powers, spells, and abilities that have astronomically high costs, such as true mind switch and sanctify the wicked. Mind fog plus assay resistance means that you have a nearly guaranteed shot at using those abilities against anything not flat-out immune to [mind-affecting] effects. Better to expend a few spell slots spamming spells with a lower non-renewable cost than waste XP, levels, or large amounts of gold.