3.5 fighter vs wizard dabate help

[Naturebane]

Ok the scenario 2 highly stubborn players have entered the age old debate of fighter vs wizard and gotten rather hostile toward each other. one says that all class' are equile and the other says that the wizard is a lot more powerful.

so i am trying to play the peace keeper by proving to them that both are needed to succeeded but now its gotten to the point where the other 2 players have started talking to me about just dropping the two that are fighting from the game and invite two new players

Do you have any ideas to at least stop arguing during our games ive already had to cut 5 games short and skipped a few games so tempers can clam down with has not worked. Any ideas

[taltamir]

1. Proving that both are needed is taking the side of the guy who says they are balanced, not a neutral view.
2. Taking a "neutral" point in an argument is neither playing peacekeeper not always right.
3. The guy who says wizards are more powerful is correct.

[InkEyes]

Person two is right, Wizards are the most powerful class in 3.5 D&D. It's amazing how potent a wimpy book nerd can become with an arbitrarily large spell list.

Still, letting a debate like that interrupt the flow of a game is far from healthy. Warning the two players that the conflict they bring to the table is ruining everyone's fun, and making other people consider kicking them out is probably a good start. If they can't stop arguing over the power levels of Dungeons and Dragons classes long enough to have fun with their friends though, it might be best to find other people who can.

[gallagher]

show how much a level 20 fighter can do in one attack, assuming that he is power attacking with a two handed weapon.

then show how much a maximized fireball can do to multiple people, and then show how much a couple of different rays can do (since hitting on touch AC is something a fighter cannot do)

then ask the fighter guy how he deals with crowds of people. hit all of them at once? ruin their ability to move? charm them? a wizard can do all of that plus more

oh, and those magic weapons fighters like? needs a wizard to make them. also, what if his +1 flaming greatsword (which gives all of an extra 1d6) is up against something with fire resistance? a wizard would simple either change the energy type with metamagic, or use a different spell.

what about against ghosts and other incorpereal foes? at least wizards get magic missile, which is more helpful than missing half the time.

what about when fighting flying creatures (wizards can fly)? what about when grappled (wizards can stillspell)? what if they are trapped in some sort of jail cell or amongst very strong enemies (wizards can teleport)?

also, wizards get familiars for free. fighters have to take leadership to get someone willing to follow them around. that might not seem like much, but a wizard can share spells and have an emphatic link and all that other crud. a fighter normally dumps charisma so they wont even have the best cohort that they can have.

hope the fighter guy likes alot of feats.

[Divide by Zero]

Between the polymorph line and summons, a wizard can make the fighter obsolete in a number of ways. In contrast, there are literally thousands of things the wizard can do for which the fighter has no equivalent ability. Versatility is one of the best qualities in a D&D class, possibly second to action economy.

[Naturebane]

Ok by both needed i meant fighter up to around 5th and wizard well 6th+

[Mushroom Ninja]

then show how much a maximized fireball can do to multiple people, and then show how much a couple of different rays can do (since hitting on touch AC is something a fighter cannot do)

Erm... blasting is generally considered a relatively weak option. The wizard is much closer to fighter-power when tossing around fireballs instead of BC, Buffs, Debuffs, and summons.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Ok by both needed i meant fighter early and wizard later

While it is indisputable that things are less unbalanced from levels 1-5 (at least between fighter and wizard, we're not bringing druid into the picture here), it is generally said that wizard is stronger than fighter even at these levels. For evidence, look at the sleep spell.

EDIT: Oops, sorry about the double post.

[Naturebane]

just thinking it over
get them each to make the following characters using the elite build, human and gp for lvl: 1st fighter, 1st wizard, 10th fighter, 10th wizard, 20th fighter, 20th wizard.
for a arena

book allowed:
phb
complete warrior
complete mage

[PhoenixRivers]

Let's look at it this way:

Wizard 20. Rather than compare to Fireball, I'm going to compare to an actual good spell. Summon monster 9.

Now, those baddies may not look like a physical match for a fighter. You're right.

However: Let's use it to pull from the Summon Monster 7 list... and for added fun, we'll give the wizard a Greater Rod of Maximize.

Let's Pick a Bone Devil. Now, we get (1d4+1) maximized Bone Devils (5).

Each of those bone devils can drop a 1 foot thick Ice wall (CL 12) every round. In a matter of 1-2 rounds, even with fighter damage, he'll be boxed in.

That one Summon monster spell will yield 5 Ice Walls per round x 20 rounds = 100 Walls of Ice.

On top of what the wizard actually does.

Disjunction will strip away most of a fighter's magic and magic items.

Greater Invisibility will all but neuter him in core.

Dominate Person/Monster as well.

The fighter has damage, and, in many cases, control. He has not the versatility to challenge the wizard in problemsolving or kill ability.

[Naturebane]

that said the fighter player is going to put up the argument about the: "right feats so he can stand toe to toe with a wizard"

[The Glyphstone]

...there aren't any?

No, Mage Slayer won't help him. An intelligent wizard doesn't let the fighter into melee reach in the first place.

[PhoenixRivers]

that said the fighter player is going to put up the argument about the: "right feats so he can stand toe to toe with a wizard"

What feats? What feats will get him out of an Ice Tomb?

Or immune to a dominate monster?

Or Slow?

Or Disjunction?

Or Enervate?

Or Maximized Empowered Ray of enfeeblement + Waves of Exhaustion?
(that's 1d3+2.5+11, or 14-16 str, with a -6 exhaustion penalty on top of that)

There's not a counter to all of it.

[Superglucose]

What feats? What feats will get him out of an Ice Tomb?

Shapechange into a Fire elemental or Dimension Door

Or immune to a dominate monster?

Mindblank

Or Slow?

There's some easy-to-get thing that gives you immunity to slow but it's escaping my mind.

Or Disjunction?

Contingency keyed to a dimension door

Or Enervate?

Or Maximized Empowered Ray of enfeeblement + Waves of Exhaustion?
(that's 1d3+2.5+11, or 14-16 str, with a -6 exhaustion penalty on top of that)

Deathward

There's not a counter to all of it.

Sure there is!
It's just protection domain cleric with that other domain that gives you access to contingency or being a Dragon, or getting Death Ward on your sorc/wizard spell list which I'm sure is possible. Or being an Archivist.

[Naturebane]

hey thanks for the help hopeful i'll be able to end the arguments before next game with out kicking any one.

thanks again.

[PhoenixRivers]

Shapechange into a Fire elemental or Dimension Door


Mindblank


There's some easy-to-get thing that gives you immunity to slow but it's escaping my mind.


Contingency keyed to a dimension door


Deathward


Sure there is!
It's just protection domain cleric with that other domain that gives you access to contingency or being a Dragon, or getting Death Ward on your sorc/wizard spell list which I'm sure is possible. Or being an Archivist.

None of which is Fighter, or Feats. In core, a Ring of Freedom of Movement will cover some of it, and there's a charged amulet that will stave off the negative energy attacks for a very short while...

But without spells, there's precious little to do.

[Toliudar]

As I read this, the core difficulty is not the fighter/wizard thing AGAIN, but that there are two players whose feuding is disrupting the game play. Therefore my answer as DM to the fighter/wizard debate would be: "I don't care, just don't talk about it at my table." It's clearly making the other players dissatisfied. If these two are so juvenile that repeated efforts to make them drop the subject - if this really has been the reason that five gaming sessions have been cut short, it's well past being reasonable - then some kind of sample showdown isn't going to end the dispute. You might in fact be able to present them with the clear position that the next time this fight gets raised, it gets both of them ejected from the game. I don't normally suggest that kind of extreme response, but dropping gaming sessions because these two are being a**holes...unacceptable.

[Hootman]

also, wizards get familiars for free.

That's TECHNICALLY untrue; if you look in the PHB on page 54, you will see that obtaining a familiar actually costs 24 hours and 100gp. I know it's a small cost, but we may as well be accurate if we're going to argue something silly like "Wizards vs Fighters".

Obviously a well-built wizard is more than capable of killing a well-built fighter at very high levels simply due to his spell versatility, but that generally only matters if he's aware he's going into a fight scenario. If the fighter manages to take the wizard by surprise, well, it's not like the wizard has the hit points to soak magical-power-attacking-keen-two-handed-weapon-to-the-face. It's all about timing and preparation.

As far as those two wayward players are concerned, it is your duty as the DM to inform them that they MUST stop arguing and get back to having fun (the primary purpose of D&D), or they cannot sit at the table with you anymore. Banishing people is never something you want to do, but you're the Boss, and if they don't listen to what you say and respect that, they don't belong playing games in the first place.

They can argue as much as they please outside of the game (preferably as far as possibly that-a-way *gestures vaguely*), but when they sit down for the game, they put away ALL of that nonsense and have fun instead.

[Aquillion]

As I read this, the core difficulty is not the fighter/wizard thing AGAIN, but that there are two players whose feuding is disrupting the game play.

This. As tempting as it is to go into wizard vs. fighter, the really important thing is to get them to keep it off of the game table (as silly as that may sound), at least as long as you're playing.




In terms of power, though, the real distinction that puts the Wizard over the top isn't direct combat applicability (though it has that). The real issue is the ability to shape the direction of the story. Spells like Teleport or Plane Shift can radically alter the campaign in an instant -- the wizard can say "Let's solve this by teleporting to the other side of the planet!" or "Let's Plane Shift to Sigil and see if we can buy what we need for this quest there!"

Spells give you much more control over the story, in ways that BAB and fighter feats never will. Of course, in a harmonious group, the Wizard won't be the one making all the decisions about where the group teleports or plane shifts -- but the fact remains that when people are discussing how to use powers that can majorly change the direction of the story, they'll usually be talking about how to use wizard spells.

[Naturebane]

As I read this, the core difficulty is not the fighter/wizard thing AGAIN, but that there are two players whose feuding is disrupting the game play. Therefore my answer as DM to the fighter/wizard debate would be: "I don't care, just don't talk about it at my table." It's clearly making the other players dissatisfied. If these two are so juvenile that repeated efforts to make them drop the subject - if this really has been the reason that five gaming sessions have been cut short, it's well past being reasonable - then some kind of sample showdown isn't going to end the dispute. You might in fact be able to present them with the clear position that the next time this fight gets raised, it gets both of them ejected from the game. I don't normally suggest that kind of extreme response, but dropping gaming sessions because these two are being a**holes...unacceptable.

thanks for your great advise. Much and all as every DM hates kicking players this may have to be an inevitable event

[taltamir]

As I read this, the core difficulty is not the fighter/wizard thing AGAIN, but that there are two players whose feuding is disrupting the game play. Therefore my answer as DM to the fighter/wizard debate would be: "I don't care, just don't talk about it at my table." It's clearly making the other players dissatisfied. If these two are so juvenile that repeated efforts to make them drop the subject - if this really has been the reason that five gaming sessions have been cut short, it's well past being reasonable - then some kind of sample showdown isn't going to end the dispute. You might in fact be able to present them with the clear position that the next time this fight gets raised, it gets both of them ejected from the game. I don't normally suggest that kind of extreme response, but dropping gaming sessions because these two are being a**holes...unacceptable.

very good observation and point.
the issue isn't who is right so much as that its being disruptive.
And the last thing you want to do is get into the argument yourself, on either side or as a third side.

Tell them not to do it at the table and that is that.

[Superglucose]

None of which is Fighter, or Feats.

I know that I was having a bit of fun.

[Math_Mage]

Tell them to postpone the discussion for some time when they have nothing better to do. 'Suggest' that these two take classes other than wizard and fighter, so as to keep the topic from entering discussion again.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK , to provide a different view for the OP (but those who followed some of the dozens of wizard vs INSERTRANDOMNONCASTER HERE may not need to read this, it is nothing new)

Let's look at it this way:

Wizard 20. Rather than compare to Fireball, I'm going to compare to an actual good spell. Summon monster 9.

Now, those baddies may not look like a physical match for a fighter. You're right.

However: Let's use it to pull from the Summon Monster 7 list... and for added fun, we'll give the wizard a Greater Rod of Maximize.

Let's Pick a Bone Devil. Now, we get (1d4+1) maximized Bone Devils (5).

Each of those bone devils can drop a 1 foot thick Ice wall (CL 12) every round. In a matter of 1-2 rounds, even with fighter damage, he'll be boxed in.

That one Summon monster spell will yield 5 Ice Walls per round x 20 rounds = 100 Walls of Ice.

Ring of Blinking, just small change for a level 20 fighter.
Protection from Evil stops the devils from even touching a fighter, so he can afford to ignore them and save his actions.

On top of what the wizard actually does.

Disjunction will strip away most of a fighter's magic and magic items.

Forces the wizard to get within close range of the fighter. A level 20 fighter could also have a will save of +20 (6 base, +3 WIS, +1 luck, +4 morale, +5 resistance, +1 competence), meaning quite a few of his items survive the blast.
A fighter within close range of a wizard in a combat of that level has a good chance of using tactics with anti-magic-field.
It will thus be a question of who is going to use his "nuke" first here.
(and, btw, all walls of ice and devils will be dispelled immediately, so there is no "on top of what the wizard actually does" in this case...)

Greater Invisibility will all but neuter him in core.

If only there were not so many ways at that level to see invisbility, or to pinpoint invisibile creatures, already in core.

Dominate Person/Monster as well.

Mirror Image. Blink. Mind Blank. A wizard using THOSE spells at that level against a foe he believes is as high-level as he is, is asking for it...
Outside of core there are even feats that can put up quite good defenses against these spells for a fighter.

The fighter has damage, and, in many cases, control. He has not the versatility to challenge the wizard in problemsolving or kill ability.

Yes, the wizard's versatility at that level is unsurpassed, especially when it comes to gathering intelligence about the opponent or hiding away (OK, technically the rogue is equal there, but...). Also Aquillon is correct about the wizard's ability to shape the story significantly with his spells.
Still...
The combat versatility of a wizard at that level: Magic. That's it. And the game is full of effects that neuter dozens or even hundreds of spells at once.
The combat versatility of a fighter at that level: Weapons and magic.

Overall: I do not doubt that PhoenixRivers will be able to immediately come up with counter-tactics to a blinking fighter who uses AMF occaisionally, pinpoints invisible opponents and cannot be touched by summoned creatures. And then, again, the high-level fighter can have counter-measures for those counter-measures. And so on. And so on.

The point is that at level 1-10 probably fighter and wizard balance are hardly an issue for most players. Levels 11-20 then are not an issue of class balance, but simply the game gets so complex with the introduction of more and more magic and more and more complex combat tactics, that any attempt to compare the power of classes gets blurred.

- Giacomo

[PhoenixRivers]

OK , to provide a different view for the OP (but those who followed some of the dozens of wizard vs INSERTRANDOMNONCASTER HERE may not need to read this, it is nothing new)

Ring of Blinking, just small change for a level 20 fighter.
Protection from Evil stops the devils from even touching a fighter, so he can afford to ignore them and save his actions.

Still blocks LOS, preventing charges. Also still has a 50% chance to damage fighter on pass through. Also gives the fighter a miss chance on all his attacks.

Net Gain? Wizard. Why? Because the Fighter cannot charge.

Forces the wizard to get within close range of the fighter. A level 20 fighter could also have a will save of +20 (6 base, +3 WIS, +1 luck, +4 morale, +5 resistance, +1 competence), meaning quite a few of his items survive the blast.

Int 18 base + 5 levels + 1 age + 6 enhancement = 30 (+10) +2 (Greater spell focus) = DC 31. 50% of the magic items gone, all the buffs. Including most forms of Flight. Follow up with Walls of Ice (above) from those demons you ignored. After the fighter falls to the ground.

A fighter within close range of a wizard in a combat of that level has a good chance of using tactics with anti-magic-field.

DC 31 UMD for the Caster level on that scroll, and DC 36 for emulating the int. Then there's the "Fighter no Fly in AMF", the "wizard contingency", and a dozen other things. Really, I defy you to manage that one.

It will thus be a question of who is going to use his "nuke" first here.
(and, btw, all walls of ice and devils will be dispelled immediately, so there is no "on top of what the wizard actually does" in this case...)

AMF does not dispel.

If only there were not so many ways at that level to see invisbility, or to pinpoint invisibile creatures, already in core.

Via core only? There are just about none. Add in SRD/Rules compendium, and you have listen checks, or spot checks... But then, If you're UMDing scrolls at 30+ DC, as a fighter, methinks you're rather low on remaining skill points. Wizard, however, with a minumum of about 9-10 skill points per level, has plenty to invest in Cross class move silently, or even in UMD to drop a silence spell to neuter pinpoint attempts.

Mirror Image. Blink. Mind Blank. A wizard using THOSE spells at that level against a foe he believes is as high-level as he is, is asking for it...
Outside of core there are even feats that can put up quite good defenses against these spells for a fighter.

Welcome to DC 35 and DC 38UMD for that mind blank. Not to mention, if you're saving the AMF for the close range, you can get dispelled from a LONG ways away. And those ignore Blink.

Yes, the wizard's versatility at that level is unsurpassed, especially when it comes to gathering intelligence about the opponent or hiding away (OK, technically the rogue is equal there, but...). Also Aquillon is correct about the wizard's ability to shape the story significantly with his spells.
Still...
The combat versatility of a wizard at that level: Magic. That's it. And the game is full of effects that neuter dozens or even hundreds of spells at once.
The combat versatility of a fighter at that level: Weapons and magic.

Overall: I do not doubt that PhoenixRivers will be able to immediately come up with counter-tactics to a blinking fighter who uses AMF occaisionally, pinpoints invisible opponents and cannot be touched by summoned creatures. And then, again, the high-level fighter can have counter-measures for those counter-measures. And so on. And so on.

The point is that at level 1-10 probably fighter and wizard balance are hardly an issue for most players. Levels 11-20 then are not an issue of class balance, but simply the game gets so complex with the introduction of more and more magic and more and more complex combat tactics, that any attempt to compare the power of classes gets blurred.

- Giacomo

Trust me Gia. You'll never best one of my Wizard 20's with a Fighter 20, in or out of core. Ever.

Ever.

Not even when you try the "why every non-caster class was designed with UMD in mind... that's why only one has it as a class skill" argument.

I mean really, I've never seen a UMD focused noncaster (outside of rogue) anywhere in D&D published material, and yet, everyone you build needs it. Definition of "1 trick pony". And it's not a good trick.

Really, you're trying a skill based solution with a non-skill based class, and expecting to have skills over for pinpointing?

[Togo]

I'd far rather have a party with a fighter and a wizard, than a party with two wizards. The fighter is a supurb platform for buff effects, a good focal point for combat, and in a general a good figure to hinge your group on. A wizard can do these things, but he isn't as good at it.

It's not what you can do eachother, it's what useful for the party that counts. One simply isn't a reasonable replacement for the other.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'd far rather have a party with a fighter and a wizard, than a party with two wizards. The fighter is a supurb platform for buff effects, a good focal point for combat, and in a general a good figure to hinge your group on. A wizard can do these things, but he isn't as good at it.

It's not what you can do eachother, it's what useful for the party that counts. One simply isn't a reasonable replacement for the other.

Shapechange turns a wizard into a good platform for buffs.

I've seen parties with 4 fullcasters. Generally:

Wizard, Beguiler, Druid, Cleric.

They destroy challenges. Trust me, the loss of "pointy stick poker" doesn't seriously impact it. If anything, the Druid is a solid Buff platform, as is the cleric, as is the wizard, if he Shapechanges.

Also, if deciding on a Core melee class? I'd much rather a Barbarian or a Paladin, both of which are superior buff platforms to a Fighter.

[Eldariel]

Shapechange turns a wizard into a good platform for buffs.

I've seen parties with 4 fullcasters. Generally:

Wizard, Beguiler, Druid, Cleric.

They destroy challenges. Trust me, the loss of "pointy stick poker" doesn't seriously impact it. If anything, the Druid is a solid Buff platform, as is the cleric, as is the wizard, if he Shapechanges.

Also, if deciding on a Core melee class? I'd much rather a Barbarian or a Paladin, both of which are superior buff platforms to a Fighter.

Same party with Artificer is quite incredible also; Artificers are fine buff platforms and have access to all the same spells all the other casters alongside WBL cheats and yeah...well, they're Artificers.

[Superglucose]

As a recent example, we had a party of Druid/Barbarian, Fighter, Cleric, and Wizard. The best frontline combatant we had was the wizard. At level 4, via Mage Armor + Alter Self into Troglodyte form and sucking a Bull's Strength from the cleric. AC of 24 (+6 NA, +4 Mage Armor, +2 Dex, +2 Shield of Faith) was better than what any of the other party members could manage, and I didn't even bother learning Shield (which would've bumped me up to ac 28). My to-hit wasn't impressive, per se, but with accurate usage of Glitterdust and Grease my paltry +5ish to hit was hitting things that were blind (-4 AC) and denied their dex. Throw in a bit of flanking and the GM was about to tear his hair out trying to understand why squishy wizard was in the front line.

All of that at level 4 and all in core and without using Mirror Image (which I had).

So yeah, a party of 4 wizards is fine. Tenser's Transformation and a few other key buffs will turn them into fully-fledged fighters in terms of damage output with a stick, even as early as level 3 if necessary. Heck, even as early as level 1 you can have a wizard with an AC of 20. Do that using WBL for your fighter at level 1.

[Sir Giacomo]

And...

Still blocks LOS, preventing charges. Also still has a 50% chance to damage fighter on pass through. Also gives the fighter a miss chance on all his attacks.

Why does a fighter need to charge here? And where is the 50% chance of damage to fighter coming through? And the 20% miss chance is not much considering the number of attacks the fighter has. Ah, and he does not need to attack with protection from evil up.

Net Gain? Wizard. Why? Because the Fighter cannot charge.

But that is not a net gain. Wizard does full-round summoning. Fighter on his full round action either just moves through the walls of ice or destroys all of the devils with a full attack. No net gain at all (abstracting for a moment from the problem of the wizard to do a full-round casting without problems at that level).

Int 18 base + 5 levels + 1 age + 6 enhancement = 30 (+10) +2 (Greater spell focus) = DC 31. 50% of the magic items gone, all the buffs. Including most forms of Flight. Follow up with Walls of Ice (above) from those demons you ignored. After the fighter falls to the ground.

First of all, the disjunction would also destroy/dispel the walls of ice plus the devils.
Second, you describe a fairly maxed core DC for that level (age mods? Starting stat of 18? Well...). The +20 will save is not the maximum the fighter could have as will save at that level.
Third, why should the fighter fall to the ground? In case he was flying (quite common at that level) he would not have needed to bother about the devils or walls at all.
And fourth, I just noticed that disjunction has a burst area (not spread). So a fighter can completely nullify it with his tower shield set to total cover. (the question of course being - will he have it set in that manner in that particular round?)

DC 31 UMD for the Caster level on that scroll, and DC 36 for emulating the int. Then there's the "Fighter no Fly in AMF", the "wizard contingency", and a dozen other things. Really, I defy you to manage that one.

There would be no need to emulate the INT - in case the fighter somehow got INT 16 with the help of items. So UMD DC 31 it could be.
Also, a fighter not wishing to use UMD could just either have a custom item that does it 1/day (I think it costs 40k or so) - in case of non-core campaigns where all rules could apply.
Finally, the fighter might use it from a greater ring of spell storing. Expensive - but at those levels?

AMF does not dispel.

see above. I meant your wizard doing disjunction at a fighter in melee with summoned devils would also get rid of those.

Via core only? There are just about none.

Ways to see invisibility in core? Just about none? Lemme see...
- Wand of see invisbility
- Ring of spell storing, see invisibility (all three kinds)
- UMD with permanency/see invisbility scrolls to have it on yourself permanently
- Hand of Glory
- Robe of the Eyes
- Gem of Seeing
Ah, I think there could be more - too lazy to look them all up.

Add in SRD/Rules compendium, and you have listen checks, or spot checks... But then, If you're UMDing scrolls at 30+ DC, as a fighter, methinks you're rather low on remaining skill points. Wizard, however, with a minumum of about 9-10 skill points per level, has plenty to invest in Cross class move silently, or even in UMD to drop a silence spell to neuter pinpoint attempts.

Yes they have - which is why I for a long time already have been saying that a fighter is less suited to take on a wizard in a duel than a monk.

Welcome to DC 35 and DC 38UMD for that mind blank. Not to mention, if you're saving the AMF for the close range, you can get dispelled from a LONG ways away. And those ignore Blink.

Yes, the fighter could get dispelled. But again, there are counters, say rings of counterspell/greater dispel. Or mirror image.
Plus, the mind blank you could get from an npc caster who you lend your greater rod of extend for the job. Voila, 2 days mind blank for just 1,200gp. But I think mind blank is often not even necessary for a fighter at that level.

Trust me Gia. You'll never best one of my Wizard 20's with a Fighter 20, in or out of core. Ever.

Ever.

OK, then what do you think about the following: Just post a level 20 core wizard with the spells he has learnt and currently up as buffs (the 1hr/lvl or more). And I tell you how a level 20 fighter could still be a big risk for this wizard, step by step.

Somehow, given the many times that I was able to come up with counters to alleged "spell wins" I think we should give it a try. What do you think?

Not even when you try the "why every non-caster class was designed with UMD in mind... that's why only one has it as a class skill" argument.

I mean really, I've never seen a UMD focused noncaster (outside of rogue) anywhere in D&D published material, and yet, everyone you build needs it. Definition of "1 trick pony". And it's not a good trick.

Really, you're trying a skill based solution with a non-skill based class, and expecting to have skills over for pinpointing?

You bring up "1 trick pony" while maintaining that a class whose one big strength derives from just one source? That is...interesting.

And again, I will state the following:
Non-casters do not NEED UMD to have a good chance vs casters in high-level combat.
The only thing they need is good magic items that synergise with their class abilities and combat tactics.
What UMD does simply is provide them with buffs more cheaply, and with another source for those buffs apart from npcs/pcs/permanent items.

- Giacomo

PS: in two other threads (one closed, in the other I can't currently find it) there was a rather good criticism to my assumption that a non-caster would be able to pick the right items - without any knowledge what they might be. This is in line with my criticism that players of casters often assume that they know about all the abilities of creatures they summon or call so that they basically can employ all the special abilities of all the monsters of the MM.
Well...I am still thinking about this one.

First of all, I think the idea to summon creatures and then test them is OK. So a wizard or other caster IN CASE HE DOES THAT (lawful good clerics may not be so inclined with the celestial creatures they summon) will have a comprehensive knowledge of these creatures - provided they have the time and/or language skills to do so.
That still would make it necessary to only gather via knowledge checks the info on super-powerfull creatures to call (which he cannot summon and test without consequences).

Second, why non-casters without magic knowledge could have knowledge of the items they need. Well, contrary to the knowledge on the special abilities of solars, the knowledge on items and their abilities is freely available, as per the DMG rules of buying items. A DM can always have his npcs cheat the pcs buying items ("sure this is a ring of blinking" - *casts magic aura on a wooden non-magical ring*). But this is DM fiat, not what the rules suggest should happen.

Third, beyond RAW let us compare the game effects of the two possible interpretations. If casters get all monster abilites and non-casters get the knowledge with their wbl to buy what they want, we have
1) casters with all MM abilites ON TOP of their maxed wbl
2) noncasters with must their maxed wbl.

You choose

But I'll think on this some more.