4e PHB 3 unbalanced?

[Lord_Kimboat]

Hi everyone

I just got the 4th Ed Player's Handbook 3 and just one my initial viewing, it looks like the races are unbalanced with those of previous editions. Almost all of them have +2 to 3 stats instead of 2 stats in other books.

I'm a little concerned by this as I don't want my players to all commit suicide with their old characters so that they can get new ones. Also, the big advantage of 4e was supposed to be that it is balanced.

Anyone else found this? I had a bit of a look around the forum but I couldn't search for Players Handbook 3.

[Asbestos]

Hi everyone

I just got the 4th Ed Player's Handbook 3 and just one my initial viewing, it looks like the races are unbalanced with those of previous editions. Almost all of them have +2 to 3 stats instead of 2 stats in other books.

I'm a little concerned by this as I don't want my players to all commit suicide with their old characters so that they can get new ones. Also, the big advantage of 4e was supposed to be that it is balanced.

Anyone else found this? I had a bit of a look around the forum but I couldn't search for Players Handbook 3.

If they already have a working character why would they kill them off? PHB3 races don't get +2 to 3 stats, they get +2 to one stat and then get to choose between two other stats for the second +2 bonus, they still only have +2 to 2 stats. The only time it might be considered 'unfair' would be at character creation.

[Lord_Kimboat]

If they already have a working character why would they kill them off?

This is a house rule. The players kept wanting to change characters (like every third game) and play something else. So I put my foot down and said that they only way they could change is if their character died and they start at 1 level lower. They nearly mutinied and there have been a couple of times where they have thought to all commit suicide at the same time in order to get around this prohibition.

PHB3 races don't get +2 to 3 stats, they get +2 to one stat and then get to choose between two other stats for the second +2 bonus, they still only have +2 to 2 stats. The only time it might be considered 'unfair' would be at character creation.

Ah yes, I see it now. I missed it glancing over it and thought that they got the +2 to all three stats. This makes sense now and isn't nearly so bad as I thought.

Disaster averted.

[erikun]

PHB3 classes do not get +2 to three stats. Rather, they get +2 to one base stat, and another +2 two a second stat of choice (select two). I believe the Half-Elf has been updated to reflect a similar change; that is, +2 to one stat and another +2 to a choice of secondary stats.

It seems more the directing that 4e is heading with all the races, as opposed to greater options only for newer races.

[Inyssius Tor]

I believe the Half-Elf has been updated to reflect a similar change; that is, +2 to one stat and another +2 to a choice of secondary stats.

No. tenletters

[Asbestos]

Is it me or has the power level of the Racial Powers declined throughout the various PHBs? I mean, the PHB1 races all seem to be able to hold their ground rather well, even with the freedom that PHB3 races have when assigning stat bonuses.

[ungulateman]

Well, even without three racial bonuses, PHB 3 is still overpowered because the psychic power source is utterly broken, in both senses. It's either terrible or very overpowered, depending on who's making it. The only real exception is the Monk, who's pretty much using the Ki power source anyway.

[BloodyAngel]

Get used to it. Every new book things will probably get a little more unbalanced... until finally the whole thing is a giant mess and they make 5th edition.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well, even without three racial bonuses, PHB 3 is still overpowered because the psychic power source is utterly broken, in both senses. It's either terrible or very overpowered, depending on who's making it. The only real exception is the Monk, who's pretty much using the Ki power source anyway.

Admittedly I haven't done an in depth analysis, but I didn't see anything wrong with it, except for the fact that nobody in my group is running 4E.

[Theodoric]

Well, even without three racial bonuses, PHB 3 is still overpowered because the psychic power source is utterly broken, in both senses. It's either terrible or very overpowered, depending on who's making it. The only real exception is the Monk, who's pretty much using the Ki power source anyway.

Psionic isn't overpowered; heck, with the low damage at-wills do in Epic tier, it might as well be slightly underpowered.

[Leon]

Its not the books fault that you have players who are not attached to the PCs that they make and are willing to discard them at the drop of a hat in favor of the new flavor of the month

[Tiki Snakes]

Just a thought, but if one of the problems you frequently have is that your players enjoy building and playing new characters with some frequency, there are perhaps decent ways to work around this.

Perhaps building in an organisation as the central hook, rather than relying on a group of individuals? So the main joining theme is, for example, they are all policemen in the LAPD. They are all elite mercenaries from the Band of the Buzzard, or scholars from the Overlooked University of Wizardry, or any number of other concepts up to and including members of an Adventuring Guild (Murderous Hobo's Incorporated?).

This would possibly allow for a more flexible in-character group membership without causing overly annoying breaks in suspension of disbelief.

[rayne_dragon]

1) power creep is likely inevitable, especially given that new products need to offer something more than previous ones in order to keep a profitable marketability.

2) Power creep occurs across all classes, especially given the Power series of books. I'm hoping this will keep things balanced well.

3) Psionics doesn't seem overpowered. I'm running a game with a Psion, an Ardent, and an Assassin. I'm not convinced that they're any more or less effective that a party that has a wizard, warlord, and rogue. I think the main difficulty with new PHBs is not that the classes are more powerful, but that they're new and that alone is enough to drive people to want to try them out.

[LibraryOgre]

Perhaps building in an organisation as the central hook, rather than relying on a group of individuals? So the main joining theme is, for example, they are all policemen in the LAPD. They are all elite mercenaries from the Band of the Buzzard, or scholars from the Overlooked University of Wizardry, or any number of other concepts up to and including members of an Adventuring Guild (Murderous Hobo's Incorporated?).

This would possibly allow for a more flexible in-character group membership without causing overly annoying breaks in suspension of disbelief.

I agree with Tiki. While this has somewhat frustrated our dear DreamMasher, he's had most of us be arrayed around the "Rex Family", what started as a mercantile family from Fallcrest, and has evolved into two groups, one attempting to stop the Arkhosian Empire and the other attempting to stop them.

What it has meant is that characters leave and come back all the time... and sometimes change radically in between. In our current party, we have
1) Berry, an Eladrin wizard who's been in play for more than a year,
2) Larry, his feycharging fighter brother (new character)
3) Sharra, a Deva Shaman who was last with us during the pyramid of shadows
4) Orsik, who's been in play for a while.
5) R'van, a Deva Avenger (MC Paladin) who is made of awesome, and has learned the secret of knocking people double-prone.
6) Lucan, who was with us for Winterhaven, disappeared, and came back as an entirely different Ranger build (going from archer to hunter, iirc).

We have a continuity of character, but a lot of flexibility... I can drop R'van at some appropriate point and come back to him if the story warrants or I want to try something different. In fact, I have the character Mourn, a dwarven Warlord, who's been wandering around; I may go back to him if we decide to go with the dwarves after this. We work our previous characters into our backstory. Ol' One-Round Begby was with the party because Tzartorious Rex sent him to keep an eye on Furious and Tempestuous, his cousin and cousin in law.

[Artanis]

One thing to remember about races is that stats aren't the only factor in how strong they are. There's also feats and powers and racial traits and whatnot. Half-Elves, Elves, and Eladrin, for instance, get some very nice racial powers, and Dwarves are pretty much the only ones for whom 2nd Wind is worth a damn.