Fiends

[Geiger Counter]

How do you personally portray devil and demon societies and behavior?

[hamishspence]

Fiendish Codex 1 and Fiendish Codex 2 have examples of devilish and demonic societies.

Aside from that, I'm sure people have put their own twists on them- especially since not all demons are the same.

Some are subtle and sneaky, others brutish and savage- and this will result in different societies depending on which type is commonest.

[AslanCross]

Unless the PCs are exposed to it, it's really difficult to show the eccentricities thereof.

Both are of course based on strength and the big guy being the leader, but it's a lot more formal in Infernal society.

Devils are more likely to work together and at least tolerate each other to accomplish a common goal. They're more of an army: particular devils will ONLY follow devils of a higher rank. Status is of great importance, and there are strict tiers associated with particular devil types. As such, a Bone Devil might go to great lengths to get Orthons, Steel Devils, and Chain Devils to join him, as opposed to just having a ton of Lemures. A devil is more likely to tempt a mortal than flip out and eat him (although lower-level devils, like the battleraging barbazu, are likely to just attack a mortal too). C.S. Lewis's description of the devil agenda fits rather well: They "wish for slaves that will become cattle."

There was also a very interesting thread on devil language once, wherein the way they constructed their sentences varied based on whom they were talking to.

Demons, on the other hand, are far less organized and are more akin to roving bands of gangsters. They're likely to fight each other over the simplest things (and since they mostly have DR/good, they don't do a very good job of tearing each other to pieces). They also don't really care about status so much---if they can put another guy down to make themselves strong they will. (bullying into servitude also helps). A Hezrou won't take pains to prove his status by getting minions of the next lower level (Vrocks); he's fine with a bunch of Dretches and Babaus as long as he can bully them.
Demons are far more likely to just eat people, as they're always in a perpetual seething fury. A few, like the Succubus, Glabrezu, and Nalfeshnee are more tempters and schemers than the rest.

[Geiger Counter]

Fiendish Codex 1 and Fiendish Codex 2 have examples of devilish and demonic societies.

Fluff wise I'm more interested in the opinions of DMs on the oots board than the WotC staff.

[nedz]

Any given set of Demons will always be different to the others, variety here adds to the unpredictability. It depends on how squimish the players are.

Variety in the Devils too, though not quite in the same way.
They migh be militaristic, or take very orthodox views.

In either case both races are immortal and do not have a human centric world view. They would view mortals as transients and be generally disinterested to their short term issues.

Demons might easily view mortals as toys, things to be played with, for amusement. Bullying them would only really appeal to the weaker ones since most mortals are very weak; its just too easy. Still an opportunity to cause mayhem by slaughtering them might appeal.

Devils would more likely ignore mortals unless they saw an opportunity. After all their souls might not be worth more than a few pennies, so not worth any great risk or effort. Hero's souls might be worth a little more, and certainly stopping some big plan by the forces of good would be more likely to get their attention.

[krossbow]

I've always portrayed devil's acting like Wolfram and heart from Angel acted. Hilariously proper and regimented about their evilness.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well with demons, I like to lean them a bit towards the Chaos side of their alignments. This is especially fun if your players make some attempt to deal with them as if they were a rational creature. Inappropriate emotional responses work great, such as when one of the PCs (a Barbarian) was fighting a demon in my last adventure and was trying to bad mouth him, saying "Do you wanna die?" and the demon just laughed and said "DO I? HA HAHAHAHA!!"

Demons love fighting, violence, and especially pain. They know that they will just reform later in the Abyss, so dying on the material plane isn't really a big problem for them (and most demons don't really have a lot of time sensitive plans, especially when they're just there to work for some human cult).

This basically means that demons in my setting don't really have much of a society at all. The Abyss is a constant brawl, and the only rule is "Strength prevails." The only way demons ever work together is when a stronger demon forces them into it, and they never stay together for too long. Of course, demons have to be a little more careful when in the Abyss, because they won't reform if killed there, so most of them strive to spread to other planes so they can cut loose and cause the most mayhem. Basically, try to imagine what a horde of orc barbarians would be like if you removed tribal affiliations, families, mating, and mortality, and replaced all that with sado-masochism, violence, and the basest immorality you can think of.

As with everything, my demons have one exception, one idea that they can all agree on: killing devils. My devils lean a bit towards the Lawful side of their alignments, and the demons utterly HATE them, probably more than any other force in existence. If you've seen The Dark Knight, you probably remember the Joker's little speech to Harvey Dent towards the end of the movie. Well in my setting, the devils are the schemers and the demons are the Joker, and they'll do whatever they can to ruin the devils' schemes.



In contrast, the devils in my setting are a perfect blend between soldier, politician, lawyer, and bureaucrat. When you get to Hell, you'll be asked to take a number, and fill out this stack of forms in triplicate. Unlike the demons, devils far prefer to be inflicting pain than be on the receiving end of it. They think they're in a war with the demons, but they're the only ones treating it that way. Their Lawfulness is too deeply ingrained for them to truly comprehend the unbridled Chaos of the demon menace, but they keep leading miltary campaigns and surgical strikes against their age-old foes all the same.

When not waging their eternal Blood War, the devils prefer not to fight and only do so if it's the last option. They'd much rather make a deal than risk ruining their carefully laid plots in a frivolous contest of arms. Simply put, any devil who makes their business on the material plane just can't afford to be banished back to Hell.

Despite the fact that the devils only fight when they have to, their society is structured like a military hierarchy. Strength doesn't matter as much as rank. Every single rank-and-file devil is subordinate to someone else, leading all the way up to a ruling Archduke of Hell. A devil requires permission from their superior for almost everything they do, and extensive records are kept on everything. If you thought sports statisticians were going a little too far with it, you'll be overwhelmed by the statisticians in Hell. The devil, as they say, is in the details. In such a society, crime (as the devils would define it, anyway) is virtually nonexistant.

While ordinary devils do whatever they must to appease their masters, their relations with devils outside their chain of command almost approaches what we'd consider normalcy. In Hell, this usually takes the form of commerce, with individual devils selling their services for slaves, magic items, mortal souls, or even just favors. As with everything, it's more complicated in Hell than it is on the Prime Material, what with all the paperwork and extensive background checks required, but it greases the wheels of Hell's economy. The devils even invented a stock market in the soul exchange.



Anyway, as you can see, the demons and devils in my campaigns aren't grossly different from the default. They're still CE and LE, respectively. I just put a few tweaks on their personalities, tipped them in one direction or the other, and it eventually led to all this. The thing that I always remember about the fiends is that they're extremely extreme, even moreso than the other groups of outsiders. They're trapped in an insane construct, thrashing against the chains of the multiverse, trying to find their place, trying to control their fates, trying to win an unwinnable war, trying just to survive.

[The Glyphstone]

Wouldn't demons be extremely effective at tearing each other to pieces, since monsters with DR automatically bypass DR of that type?

[KillianHawkeye]

Wouldn't demons be extremely effective at tearing each other to pieces, since monsters with DR automatically bypass DR of that type?

No, that doesn't work with alignment-based DR. With that, you usually naturally bypass DR of the opposite type. Or rather, alignment-based DR is usually based on creatures of the opposite alignment attacking you.

What I mean is that the type of DR that you bypass is equal to whatever alignment subtypes you possess. Whereas the type of DR you possess is usually keyed to the type of creature that usually attacks you. Id est creatures of the opposite alignment.

Example: Demons are [Evil], so their attacks count as Evil-aligned, but you usually need a Good-aligned weapon to damage them.

[The Glyphstone]

No, that doesn't work with alignment-based DR. With that, you usually naturally bypass DR of the opposite type. Or rather, alignment-based DR is usually based on creatures of the opposite alignment attacking you.

What I mean is that the type of DR that you bypass is equal to whatever alignment subtypes you possess. Whereas the type of DR you possess is usually keyed to the type of creature that usually attacks you. Id est creatures of the opposite alignment.

Example: Demons are [Evil], so their attacks count as Evil-aligned, but you usually need a Good-aligned weapon to damage them.

I thought it was the other way round - i.e. creatures that possess innate DR/magic can bypass DR/Magic with their natural weapons. Upon reading the Damage Reduction rules, though, it looks like you're right. DR/Magic is a special case, and the effects of having an alignment subtype are also specifically called out.

[Graymayre]

I vary it based on the story. It is rare that I use them, but when I do the most likely system for them is that:

Demons and Devils are mostly on the same par in my worlds:

They are narcissistic, most act as if they are the only of their type (excluding their underlings). If they do interact with other hellish beings I make it a point to have them never meet, or even talk of each other. It's interesting to see the players try and understand the fight between the two, or wonder if there really is a fight, or even if there really is more than one creature.

[Sydonai]

Demons do anything they want to do anytime they want to do it.......unless someone/something can threaten them into taking orders, but the only ones that can do that are Balors, the Princes, and evil deities.

Devils do what they are ordered to do by their superiors, and anything they can get away with on the side.

Yugoloths on the other hand are pure mercenaries, they will do anything if given enough monetary compensation(although they may have odd concepts of "value"), the beating of their lives will usually count as "compensation" if they try to backtalk someone stronger than them.

[Zellic Solis]

Demons are for encounters.

Devils are for campaign arcs.

I admit I have a bias for the latter. I play devils as a little bit illuminatii and a little bit catholic church. The mortals are pawns of a lowly devil. The devil is a pawn of a more powerful devil. And up and up and up it goes. Devils don't just think big and small, but laterally as well. One devil cell is working to institute slavery in a kingdom. Or serfdom. Or capitalism. Or whatever ism reduces humans to disposable workers. Another sponsors an all girls orphanage teaching the girls to seduce and corrupt virtuous men. In other words when devils are about the whole kingdom is at risk.

With devils it's BLARGH BLARGH KILL RAPE MURDER BLARRGH!

However I have run one exception. I had a succubus fall in love with a mortal. She honestly and sincerely loved this woman she'd been sent to corrupt. Oh she was still evil (and was shapeshifting to slaughter anyone she felt a whim to) but her chaoticness had a special exception for the mayor's daughter. True, eventually she might have gotten bored or worked to corrupt her... but the party had to decide to kill her or not. (of course they did.).

[Geiger Counter]

never mind.

[nedz]

never mind.

Maybe you asked the wrong question ?

[Aik]

Don't tend to use devils. Tanar'ri are everpresent in our Planescape games though - very often as player characters. They have a great deal of depth - the demons-just-walk-around-killing-everything schtick doesn't do it for us.

They're evil, but they have personalities beyond 'I am evil'. They care about things. They may have different methods of showing that caring than what we'd generally deem acceptable, but they're not unfeeling. Actually - the complete opposite. They feel very deeply. Their goal isn't 'to be evil' - it's to have the things they care about happen and their methods of getting there will generally be evil.

One of my favourite characters is an NPC alu-fiend who my character encountered as she was dipping her paint brush into my character's paladin friend's chest while painting a brilliant mural. Naturally, this lead to fighting, which ended when my character came to understand that really, in the fiend's point of view, this wasn't a wrong thing at all and killing her over it would be a **** move - all she wanted to do was finish her painting (... naturally, she couldn't - but still).

I strongly dislike fiends-are-evil-and-therefore-act-like-*****-all-the-time way of portrayal. When they're all narcissistic *******s who'll kill you at the drop of a hat if they think they can win, they stop being characters and start being sword-fodder. Which is fine, I guess, if all you want to do is hack them up - but I find talking to them more interesting. They have an alien mindset and you can't get any thoughts into that by just stabbing them.

I have a book called Bonds of Blood - Gender, Lifestyle, and Sacrifice in Aztec Culture. It's an interesting look into what in D&D terms would be a lawful evil society. From it:

In attempting to reach the mentalités of eighteenth-century France,
Robert Darnton suggests that when ‘we run into something that seems
unthinkable to us, we may have hit upon a valid point of entry into an
alien mentality’ and, for the Aztec historian, human sacrifice must
inevitably form this point of entry.

I think the same sort of thinking is good to apply to fiends and their societies.

After all, in D&D - 'evil' is a valid moral stance. Being evil doesn't make you a lesser person as we tend to think of 'evil people' in our modern way of thinking - they have an infinite number of people to back them up and validate their moral beliefs as being of worth. That we can dismiss evil society as being full of narcissistic angry people who kill each other all the time for the lulz seems to me like it's just a product of 'evil == fail' thinking.

This is getting less coherent so I'll stop now (hayfever has killed my brain).
tl;dr: I try and give fiends depth and character and have their evilness pervade/inform/whatever that and their methods.


edit: wow, what a zealous word filter this forum has...

[nedz]

I find Fiends very hard to use as an RP encounter. My players will just charge in and attack.
The last time I used one the PCs had found a Demon Summoning Book which they preceeded to take out of town and attempt to burn on a pyre. They all stood back, expecting it to go bang perhaps.
Instead a portal appeared and a Hezrou stepped through. The PCs charged, but He just looked at them funny, stepped away and hit them with lots of bad status effect, hold persons etc.
Whilst the PCs were sorting themselves out, the Hezrou just pulled the book out of the fire and ambled off back through the portal. He just wanted his book back.
If I'm going to setup some RP then I will generally not use fiends because of this predictable reaction. I prefer more morally ambiguous situations.

[hamishspence]

Dungeon seemed to do alliances between fiends and the main characters quite a bit.

Sometimes, it may be necessary for the players to negotiate rather than fight- even when it's fiends they are dealing with.

And there's places like Sigil- where fiends and celestials alike have to put up with each other.

[KillianHawkeye]

If I'm going to setup some RP then I will generally not use fiends because of this predictable reaction. I prefer more morally ambiguous situations.

You just need to train your PCs properly by not using fiends as enemies. Have onebeing attacked by some other obviously evil creatures, and then have it thank them for saving it and give them some treasure. Or something.

[hamishspence]

Or have mixed parties of NPCs- a LN faction such as the Gray Order, with both fiends and celestials in their ranks.

If they, in a particularly cosmopolitan city, see a fiend and a celestial playing chess in a coffeehouse, this might possible encourage some rethinking of "kill all fiends on sight"

Or similar examples.

[Eldan]

If your PCs are generally too hostile towards fiends, ease them into it: have NPCs they interact with being fiends in disguise. If the players find out, they will be suspicious, perhaps even attack. But let them do nothing evil the players will ever find out. Let the fiends offer them help against common enemies, if the players attack the fiends, they have another fight costing resources instead of help. Their loss. Or make a situation where they have the chance between choosing to interact with a fiend or something much more horrible.

[KillianHawkeye]

Or make a situation where they have the chance between choosing to interact with a fiend or something much more horrible.

"So an imp and Cthulhu walk into a bar..."

[Kaiyanwang]

Devils, as I pointed out in a recent tread, I play them like a sort of mix between planar nazi and planar mafia, exspecially the latter.

Demons, I try to play them like an exxageration of some sort of emotion, and emotion that grew so great to be overwhelming.

Devils are evile because empty - they are an efficent machine.

Demons are evil because too filled - all the things they are, there is too much.

[Sydonai]

Devils, as I pointed out in a recent tread, I play them like a sort of mix between planar nazi and planar mafia, exspecially the latter.

Demons, I try to play them like an exxageration of some sort of emotion, and emotion that grew so great to be overwhelming.

Devils are evile because empty - they are an efficent machine.

Demons are evil because too filled - all the things they are, there is too much.

And Yugoloths are evil becuase they are just like us, all of a human's negative traits, with none of the redeaming traits.

[Geiger Counter]

Maybe you asked the wrong question ?

No I just removed something that might be construed as talking about IRL issues.

[Kaiyanwang]

And Yugoloths are evil becuase they are just like us, all of a human's negative traits, with none of the redeaming traits.

Precisely!

[Yora]

I strongly prefer demons, to the point that I decided for my homebrew setting that there is only one outer plane, and all outsiders are "demons". Not all are evil and horrific, but the vast majority are of the tanrar'ri type. Demons just do not belong into the material plane or the inner planes, so every time a demon travels to a place outside the Outer Plane, they start spreading Taint. The small number of rather benevolent eladrin-"demons" have the same effect, so they usually keep to their layers of the Outer Plane, which form save havens for the few planar travelers.

Except for bebiliths, demons have no way of reaching the material on their own, and bebiliths prefer to spend their day eating other demons, so there are almost no demons on the material plane at all. The only way to get a demon on the material plane is by a gate or planar binding, which requires the help of very powerful spellcasters. So every powerful demon who has any desires to visit the material plane or have a minion make the journey for him, just has to have a cult of mortals, just for that purpose. As 15th level wizards are hard to come by, and are usually reluctant to call a demon to their home, they usually have to start at square one. Which means finding some idiots to start a cult, making them clerics, attract more capable idiots, gather lots of resources, and hopefully one day teaching a prommising cultist enough magic to get a greater planar binding done. And then the demon lord can send a glabrezu or marilith to take control of the opperation and finally start hunting for the desired artifact or magical knowledge. And as a neat side effect, the cult produces a slow but hopefully steady supply of mortal souls, which could come in quite handy for every respectable demon lord. But except for that, demons are usually too much occupied with fighting each other and plotting against their supperiors, and couldn't care less for boring mortals and their completely useless world.

Though most demons are chaotic evil incarnate, most of them are actually pretty smart or even geniuses. They are usually smart enough to not just devour an entire cult or allow them to start kidnapping princessess or burning down towns. Demons are highly compulsive and love carnage, but usually try to restrain themselves, even if it can be hard at times. As long as things go as the demon has planned, they can be very civil and pull off the most outrageous lies. If things do not go well, they get extremely angry very quickly. But the smarter ones are constantly trying to not make things worse by giving in to their anger and biting their high priests head off, but it's always very obvious to anyone around that they could loose it any moment. But at the same time, demons are immortal, so patience isn't hard for them at all. Demons are bloodthirsty killers when they are angry or get into a fight, but usually they are scheeming and lying and betraying at every opportunity.
Demons usually have a plan, but unlike devils, their plans are usually not very good. Instead demons are very comfortable to play things by ear. They usually lack any real contingency plans, but at the same time do not have great troubles adjusting their plans for changing circumstances.

[Murdim]

And Yugoloths are evil becuase they are just like us, all of a human's negative traits, with none of the redeaming traits.

I always liked to imagine the General of Gehenna as a (formerly) mortal being of such power, such wickedness and such badassery that the entire yugoloth species pledged eternal allegiance to him. He's not a yugoloth ; he's not even a fiend ; yet he's one of the most influential entities on the Planes. Actually, there's been several Generals over the ages, though the successions have been regular, assenting, and virtually unnoticeable. I always found it very appropriate for the incarnations of a very human Evil to have a very human, and very Evil leader.

[Dvandemon]

I'm falling in love with this thread

[nedz]

There are actually many options.

You could make Devils Ideological rather than Buerocratic.
Then their plans would fail because of the law of unintended consequences.
(This is kind of like certain politics IRL)

or

You could have them gamble on how many souls they can gather, or perhaps better which of certain souls will fall first.
This would leave you with a plot where two (or more) Devils interfere with a party to produce the outcome they want. So one minute a Devil appears an helps the party (for apparently no reason) and then a few minutes later screws them in some way. This would actually appear chaotic, but actually is just an attempt to win their bet.
(This might work better for demons)

or

They intervene to help one party member (no strings attached) with the sole intention of causing distrust and thus disrupting the forces of good from attaining their goal.

or

Their goal is so abstact that the party are oblivious as to why the fiends keep turning up and doing weird stuff.

or

...