[3.5] Highest saves?

[Myou]

How high can you get your saving throws by level 20, without sacrificing all combat ability?
Can you, say, get Cha to saves twice?

[AslanCross]

Monk/Paladin/Argent Fist looks like a good bet for this. It's not uber, but not completely useless either.

Typically you can't get the Cha to saves twice, though--almost all iterations of Divine Grace that I know of specifically say that they don't stack.

[Myou]

Monk/Paladin/Argent Fist looks like a good bet for this. It's not uber, but not completely useless either.

Typically you can't get the Cha to saves twice, though--almost all iterations of Divine Grace that I know of specifically say that they don't stack.

Where's the Argent Fist?
Any other stats you can add? Or add twice? xD

Perhaps a Paladin with Serenity could get Wis twice? XD

[Optimystik]

Relevant thread: X Stat to Y Bonus

[Runestar]

A dwarven barb20 with base fort of +12, +5cloak, con of 30 (base14, +2racial, +6 enhancement, +8 rage) has fort 27 at least. With steadfast determination, his will save isn't too shabby either (base+6, +5cloak, +4insight - crystal mask from MIC, +10con, +4rage) = 29. Reflex stinks, but you have the hp for that.

Perhaps not the most stellar, but the easiest to acquire, IMO.

Other ways of further improving your saves include greater heroism (+4 morale bonus on saves and attack rolls ) and greater resistance (replacing cloak of resistance). There are an assortment of smaller bonuses (ioun stone, luckstone, heritor feats, iron will/great fortitude), you decide if it is worth the effort stacking them.

[nedz]

You need 20 1 level dips for +40 base (in at least one)

[Farlion]

You need 20 1 level dips for +40 base (in at least one)

How high can you get your saving throws by level 20, without sacrificing all combat ability?

Cheers,
Farlion

[Myou]

Relevant thread: X Stat to Y Bonus

Hmmm.... Looks like you could get a few key stats to your saves at least 7 times.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gloura, LA +2/ Fey HD 7/ Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Arcane Duelist 3/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Ascetic Mage, Iron Will, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Improved Flight, Divine Might

Base saves Fort +12, Reflex +14, Will +14
Cha 40 +15 (18 base, +6 race, +4 levels, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +1 age)
Cha to saves twice (Unearthly Grace, Dark Blessing), AC four times (Unearthly Grace, Monk, Apparent Defense, Glory of the Divine), and melee damage (Divine Might)

With Power Attack two handed + Shock Trooper + Dexterous Attack + Divine Might + Dive Attack he should always hit and will be doing some really big hits.

[Myou]

Gloura, LA +2/ Fey HD 7/ Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Arcane Duelist 3/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer 1, Dodge, Mobility, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Ascetic Mage, Iron Will, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Improved Flight, Divine Might

Base saves Fort +12, Reflex +14, Will +14
Cha 40 +15 (18 base, +6 race, +4 levels, +6 enhancement, +5 inherent, +1 age)
Cha to saves twice (Unearthly Grace, Dark Blessing), AC four times (Unearthly Grace, Monk, Apparent Defense, Glory of the Divine), and melee damage (Divine Might)

With Power Attack two handed + Shock Trooper + Dexterous Attack + Divine Might + Dive Attack he should always hit and will be doing some really big hits.

W-wow... I really want to play that!

*Drools.*

Thanks!

[Heliomance]

Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard would get you CHA to saves twice, I think Gloura gets it a third time.

[katans]

Throw in Hexblade 3 for yet another CHA to saves vs. arcane spells, which stacks with Divine Grace.

[SaintRidley]

Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard would get you CHA to saves twice, I think Gloura gets it a third time.

Throw in a 2 level splash of Hexblade after that to get it a fourth time over in specific situations.

Gloura Hexblade 2/Paladin of Tyranny (or other evil variant) 2/Blackguard 7

Nets you Cha * 3 to all saves all the time and Cha * 4 to all saves against spells and spell-like effects.

+6 racial, +4 from levelling, assume a starting 16, Cloak +6, Tome +5 and you have a +13 Cha at 20. That's +39 to all saves all the time, +52 situationally.

I'm sure you can find other bonuses. My brain's tired, though, so I can't.

[Person_Man]

Note that the highest non-Epic Save DC that I'm aware of is 36 (Tarrasque), and most Saves don't go higher then Level + 10. If you buy the best Cloak of Resistance and Empyreal armor (or shield, BoED) you get +10 to all of your Saves. Throw in the minimum +6 from class levels and half decent stats, a Ring of Evasion, and a Luck Blade, (not to mention the hundreds of spells/powers/etc that boost your attributes and/or Saves and/or grant immunities) and you're pretty much set. The only real advantage to Divine Grace/Dark Blessing/etc is that they give you high boosts to your Saves early in your progression. There's not much of an advantage to optimizing Saves if you're playing in a ECL 15+ish game.

[FishAreWet]

@Person_Man
Many DMs will use epic monsters or increase the saves anyways. Because as you said, it's pretty simple to get +40 to all saves by level 18.

[PhoenixRivers]

Note that the highest non-Epic Save DC that I'm aware of is 36 (Tarrasque), and most Saves don't go higher then Level + 10. If you buy the best Cloak of Resistance and Empyreal armor (or shield, BoED) you get +10 to all of your Saves. Throw in the minimum +6 from class levels and half decent stats, a Ring of Evasion, and a Luck Blade, (not to mention the hundreds of spells/powers/etc that boost your attributes and/or Saves and/or grant immunities) and you're pretty much set. The only real advantage to Divine Grace/Dark Blessing/etc is that they give you high boosts to your Saves early in your progression. There's not much of an advantage to optimizing Saves if you're playing in a ECL 15+ish game.

Air Monoliths have a DC 39 Reflex. Stand Still and Awesome Blow both set saves based on damage dealt. This means an Earth Monolith doing an awesome blow without power attack will force an average Reflex DC of 45.

Save DC's go high.

Heck, take a psion, level 19, with overchannel, manifests an energy stun at ML 22. Let's say he uses a Torc of Power Preservation (-1pp cost), and had enough UMD to activate a karma bead (+4 ML)
This puts him at effectively ML 27. He spends 26pp, gaining the benefit of 27, and chooses electricity.

The affected creatures will take 25d6 electrical damage, at a DC of 26+ Casting stat. If he drops a psionic focus, it goes to 28+Casting stat.

Int 18 + 4 level + 5 inherent + 1 age + +6 enhancement = +12 Int mod.

That's a DC 40.

That's not even getting into celestial conduit, which, with the same treatment, would be DC 47.

[The Glyphstone]

Cheers,
Farlion

Those aren't necessarily exclusive. Off the top of my head:

Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin of Slaughter/Swashbuckler/Samurai/Hexblade/Crusader/Warblade/Duskblade has +10 BAB and +20 Fort at level 10, without dipping any PrC's. He won't be top-effective, but he'll at least be able to Power Attack things.

[RagnaroksChosen]

if they all stack i think,

monk 2/favored soul 2/paladin of tyranny 2/hexblade 3/black gaurd 2/pritty much any other 1 level dips till 20

should get you pritty high up there.

[Divide by Zero]

Gloura (as mentioned previously)/Paladin/Sublime Chord/Incantatrix. Persisting Ruin Delver's Fortune for each save gets you thrice your Cha bonus. You can do it without Incantatrix with at least one source of metamagic reduction, though the former can do it a few levels sooner.

Edit: oh yeah, throw in a level of monk and Ascetic Mage for double Cha to AC as well, though that's not what this thread is about.

[quiet1mi]

I built a character a while back that functioned as the Dragon for a BBEG... he was a Hexblade 4/ Monk 2/ Paladin of tyranny 3/ Blackguard 3...

Thats right he got 3x his charisma to saves... both mettle and evasion...

Fighting him would be an uphill battle for anyone as he immediately lends you a -6 penalty for you saves (auras and dark companion) then he extends the -6 penalty to saves to -10 by demoralizing you (and making you cowering in fear) while hitting you with his great club (brutal strike) then he punches you in the gut with stunning fist after he curses you with an additional -2 to all your saves...

The end result is that you have -12 to all your saves, -6 to your ability checks (initiative and strength checks to resist being knocked down, in addition to resisting fear), -6 to skill checks (balance checks to an area of grease, concentration checks to cast spells), -6 to attack rolls (discourages power attack) , -4 to weapon damage (it adds up) and a -2 to to armor class (free power Attack damage!). Throw in being knocked prone (-4 to attack and Ac) and cowering in fear (-2 ac, flatfoot, and cannot take any action) makes him really tough to fight...

He also like using level 1 wands like grease, charm person, and color spray... turns out DC: 11 acts like DC: 23 after all the penalties... before I forget, remember poisons? Drow poison takes people out of the fight with a measly DC of 13, which turns into DC: 25 after penalties...

His saves are Fort: 33/ Ref: 24/ Will: 27 at level 12...

[Person_Man]

@Person_Man
Many DMs will use epic monsters or increase the saves anyways. Because as you said, it's pretty simple to get +40 to all saves by level 18.

True enough. But IMO, optimizing a particular defense (or anything, really) to the point of absurdity is ultimately pointless. If you get all of your Saves to +40, as you and PhoenixRivers have correctly pointed out, the DM is going to find or create monsters with 45+ Save DCs just to make sure you have a chance of failure. From a metagame perspective, it's often better to have strong but not ridiculous defenses and a lot of different options. But obviously your mileage may vary, depending on the DM.

[The Cat Goddess]

Let's not forget that Bardic Music saves can be rediculously high, since you're resisting a Perform Check.

A well-built Bard can easily end up with +20 Perform at level 10. Throw in a level of Marshal to add Cha to all Cha skills (yes, double-Cha) for another +5.

Roll a 20 on your Perform check and the save DC is 45!

Make it a Dirgesinger (Heroes of Horror) and there are some very nasty things you can do that essentially become irresistable.

[Hawk7915]

Couldn't all these builds take a level in Warlock and have Dark One's Own Luck as their invocation in order to get Charisma to all saves 3x, and to one save x4? Or do those not stack? It seems like it ought to, if Blackguard and Paladin of Slaughter do (I know they do by RAW, but I doubt that's RAI)

[Eldonauran]

Couldn't all these builds take a level in Warlock and have Dark One's Own Luck as their invocation in order to get Charisma to all saves 3x, and to one save x4? Or do those not stack? It seems like it ought to, if Blackguard and Paladin of Slaughter do (I know they do by RAW, but I doubt that's RAI)

Darn, beat me to it. But yes, Warlock.

[Prodan]

Dark One's Own Luck only affects one save.

[Eldariel]

Cleric 20. Lessee, +12/+6/+12 base. +6 Superior Resistance. Persist some spells, 44 Dex (lessee, Shapechange into Pitfiend for 27 + 10 Divine Agility + 2 Visage of the Deity + 5 Inherent), 56 Con (27 from Pitfiend + 12 from Giant Size + 6 enhancement + 4 Visage of the Deity, Greater + 4 Holy Transformation + 5 inherent), 52 Wis (18 base + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement + 14 Owl's Insight @CL 28 + 4 Visage of the Deity). +4 Sacred to all saves from Holy Transformation, +5 Morale from Conviction, +3 Luck from Recitation.

Our saves are now...say:
Fort = 12+23 Con+18 misc = +53
Ref = 6+17 Dex+18 misc = +42
Will = 12+22 Wis+18 misc = +52

All 1s are rerolled as per Pride-domain and dispels get eaten by the high CL, Ring of Enduring Arcana, Ring of Spell-Battle, Divine Defiance, constant Anti-Magic Field on me (Initiate of Mystra) and an assortment of other defenses. Of course, that was just small list off the top of my head. Exceeding +100 on all shouldn't really take too much effort. For example, we could use Shapechange to key other stats into the deal and we could further buff our stats with an assortment of buffs.

[quiet1mi]

You had me at Cleric 20...

[Angrist]

Wow, that all sounds really complicated.
How about a simple Halfling Paladin 2/Favored Soul 18 with maxed out Cha.
That will give you saves of at least 18 + good bab, good hit dice, energy resistance.