Replacing Racial HD

[The Vorpal Tribble]

I seem to recall rules for this, where you can replace a race's HD with class levels (though LA remains the same). Such so that instead of having 4 levels of Centaur you can have 4 levels of Fighter and then add LA.

Any know where to find the specifics?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

This doesn't sound like an official ruling to me. It also sounds a little suspect, honestly. How would it interact with, for example, a Rakshasa's natural Sorcerer casting?

I'd be quite surprised if this were an official rule.

[Oslecamo]

No oficial rule, but some people do that in order to try to "improve" monster PCs.

Now shameless self-promotion to the improved monster rules I homebrewed wich happen to turn racial HD and LA into custom class levels for each monster

Here.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Vorpal Tribble, I think you are confusing with the rule that states that monster with only 1 HD change it to class HD

[Starbuck_II]

I seem to recall rules for this, where you can replace a race's HD with class levels (though LA remains the same). Such so that instead of having 4 levels of Centaur you can have 4 levels of Fighter and then add LA.

Any know where to find the specifics?

You can't. Only rule is 1 HD chan be turned into a class instead.

You have to use energy drain (so it is permanently gone). Find a friendly vampire.

[Curmudgeon]

I seem to recall rules for this, where you can replace a race's HD with class levels

That's only a house rule.

[TheMadLinguist]

You can replace HD, but not HDs.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

You can replace HD, but not HDs.

For humanoid races only and only if it has less than 2 HD.

Also there are tricks to 'siphon off' all but one of those RHD. RAI it should correspondingly reduce racial casting.

You also sound like you desperately desire my ECL variation.

[TheMadLinguist]

For humanoid races only and only if it has less than 2 HD.

Also there are tricks to 'siphon off' all but one of those RHD. RAI it should correspondingly reduce racial casting.

You also sound like you desperately desire my ECL variation.

Where does it say humanoid only?

[TheThan]

Savage species has racial class progressions. Effectively they give you the same abilities you would normally gain from just eating the LA, but spread through X number of levels. Effectively your race becomes your class, when your done with those class levels you can multi-class into a base class normally. I haven’t read it all, but it’s got a several already laid out and I bet its got rules for creating more.

[Starbuck_II]

TheThan, those are called racial class progression. Not substitution as you don't substitute anything.

It would confuse people if they called them that. Sadly SS doesn't let you take class levels till finish the progression.

[TheThan]

TheThan, those are called racial class progression. Not substitution as you don't substitute anything.

eh, I've been on hiatus for a while. So I'm a bit rusty. I'll edit the above post.

[QuantumSteve]

The suckieness of racial HD have always baffled me. How can a 12 HD creature with a +7LA be a CR 9? Why not just say "PCs can't be monsters." if they don't want them to, rather than give rules to make monster PCs but give such a high LA as to make such PCs woefully unable to defeat level appropriate encounters?

[Starbuck_II]

The suckieness of racial HD have always baffled me. How can a 12 HD creature with a +7LA be a CR 9? Why not just say "PCs can't be monsters." if they don't want them to, rather than give rules to make monster PCs but give such a high LA as to make such PCs woefully unable to defeat level appropriate encounters?

CR does not equal acceptableness of being a Party character.

CR is a measurement how dangerous for 4 PCs to fight it would be.

[TheThan]

CR does not equal acceptableness of being a Party character.

CR is a measurement how dangerous for 4 PCs to fight it would be.

But people want to play dragons, and minotaurs, and centaurs and a whole plethora of other fantasy creatures. But the game isn’t designed to support that sort of character so they had to come up with a system to make them playable without increasing the power of the pcs a whole lot. Unfortunately their system doesn’t really work that well.

I guess some times you really can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Curmudgeon]

Where does it say humanoid only?

Monster Manual, page 290.

Humanoids and Class Levels: Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. For example, a goblin sorcerer loses its humanoid attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats, and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level sorcerer.

[QuantumSteve]

CR does not equal acceptableness of being a Party character.

CR is a measurement how dangerous for 4 PCs to fight it would be.

Yes, but a party of 4 Lv1 Fire Giant PCs are EL 20 Characters (15 Racial HD, +4 LA, 1 class level) and a level appropriate encounter would be 32 CR 10 Fire Giants. (and they should be able to fight 4-5 of these a day)

Actually, the moment a Fire Giant get his PC Badge, he becomes so uber, that he no longer gains experience from fighting other Giants that moments ago were his superiors.
So a level appropriate encounter would be 4 Lv 5 Fire Giants (who also have better gear since they've been adventuring longer (and they should be able to fight 4-5 of these a day)).

Now, if these were PC races instead of giants 4 Lvl 1 PCs would have no hope of beating 4 Lvl 5 NPCs (an EL 9 encounter) even once let alone 4 or 5 times.

It seems somebody's math is off, and I'm pretty sure it's not mine.

[Glimbur]

Monster Manual, page 290.

Interestingly, look at this quote from the improving monsters section of the SRD (so it's probably originally in the monster manual)

Monsters And Class Levels

If a creature acquires a character class, it follows the rules for multiclass characters.

The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. A creature’s "monster class" is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size.
Hit Dice and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

There isn't a limit here to humanoids only.

[FishAreWet]

There is the option of templates and other type changing effects to make those Racial HD worth something. Outsider and Dragon HD aren't that bad.

[Lamech]

Energy drain can syphon off those extra HD. And then when you get down to one HD, your monster levels will become normal character levels.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, but a party of 4 Lv1 Fire Giant PCs are EL 20 Characters (15 Racial HD, +4 LA, 1 class level) and a level appropriate encounter would be 32 CR 10 Fire Giants. (and they should be able to fight 4-5 of these a day)

Actually, the moment a Fire Giant get his PC Badge, he becomes so uber, that he no longer gains experience from fighting other Giants that moments ago were his superiors.
So a level appropriate encounter would be 4 Lv 5 Fire Giants (who also have better gear since they've been adventuring longer (and they should be able to fight 4-5 of these a day)).

Now, if these were PC races instead of giants 4 Lvl 1 PCs would have no hope of beating 4 Lvl 5 NPCs (an EL 9 encounter) even once let alone 4 or 5 times.

It seems somebody's math is off, and I'm pretty sure it's not mine.

It is maybe yours possible. But possibly not.

Remember those 4 lv 5 Fire Giants NPCs get NPC gear, but the 4 fire Giant lv 1 PCs get PC gear (that extra wealth makes them much better). In fact, those fire giants are almost Epic in wealth (almost 800K gold).

But the NPC version Fire Giants get 15th lv NPC money from HD (which is much lower, 59K gold).

Did you consider how powerful they get due to extra money? That means immunity to certain effects, defenses that are really high, etc.

Now, the trouble is they only get 1 class lv so spellcasters are not a good choice usually. Melee is better suited, but maybe 1 with UMD for CLW wands.

Each has +8 NA, large size, immune to fire/vulerable cold, Str +20, Dex -2, Con +10, Wis +4. They consider that worth 4 LA, but trouble is RHD (much too high).
They deserve no LA with all that RHD. They paid too much already.

Really, if I ever played a RHD creature I'd beg to find a friend energy drainer. Just to lower my ECL to more playable.

[Runestar]

But people want to play dragons, and minotaurs, and centaurs and a whole plethora of other fantasy creatures. But the game isn’t designed to support that sort of character so they had to come up with a system to make them playable without increasing the power of the pcs a whole lot. Unfortunately their system doesn’t really work that well.

I guess some times you really can't have your cake and eat it too.

It should be possible, if a "fair" ECL could be assigned to each monster. Unfortunately, wotc tends to overinflate their LAs, making them far weaker than a classed PC of the same ECL.

Unfortunately, evaluating certain abilities can be tricky, especially if they do not directly improve your strengths. For example, being large won't really benefit a drider much (as it remains a primary caster), yet you are forced to cough up a hefty +4LA for being large, some stat boosts and misc SLAs. The end result is that no one would ever play one over a 10th lv cleric, wizard or sorc!

I don't see what is wrong with playing a minotaur or dragon, so long as they are no more (and also no less) powerful than class lvs.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

glimbur the SRD doesn't override the MM.

I have the cure for all your monstrous PC ECL problems

[TheThan]

It should be possible, if a "fair" ECL could be assigned to each monster. Unfortunately, wotc tends to overinflate their LAs, making them far weaker than a classed PC of the same ECL.

Unfortunately, evaluating certain abilities can be tricky, especially if they do not directly improve your strengths. For example, being large won't really benefit a drider much (as it remains a primary caster), yet you are forced to cough up a hefty +4LA for being large, some stat boosts and misc SLAs. The end result is that no one would ever play one over a 10th lv cleric, wizard or sorc!

I don't see what is wrong with playing a minotaur or dragon, so long as they are no more (and also no less) powerful than class lvs.

Yep, that’s a problem with the game system. There is no fair way to judge the worth of a given ability. Your drider example is a pretty good one actually. Like the above’s homebrew, the only fair way to determine how to make a monstrous creature playable is to go through them on a case by case basis.

[TheMadLinguist]

glimbur the SRD doesn't override the MM.

I have the cure for all your monstrous PC ECL problems

SRD tends to include updates (like RC) and eratta automatically.

And you've pimped that in this thread already.

[Oslecamo]

Yep, that’s a problem with the game system. There is no fair way to judge the worth of a given ability. Your drider example is a pretty good one actually. Like the above’s homebrew, the only fair way to determine how to make a monstrous creature playable is to go through them on a case by case basis.

Well, not only that, but my homebrew work also focuses on making sure monster abilities improve with your character. In particular scaling SR, nat armor, DR, regeneration, skill bonus, tying SLAs saves and CL to your HD, etc, etc, so they aren't too strong when you gain them at low levels but become stronger than the original monster when you reach higher levels.