Sooo... I'm now a "Native Outsider"...

[shimmercat]

EDIT: I've realized my issue is with the character's mechanics in general rather than this stuff in particular, so I made a new thread here.


...what does that MEAN?

Background: We're playing 3.5. Character is named Dieder, male human, CG, 1 Rogue, 10 Cleric, 10 Contemplative. We've been playing these characters for 16 levels now, over a year and a half RL time. We aren't really optimized. It's an RP-heavy game, in a custom world. Dieder is a ship's captain and the cleric of our version of Bahamut (similar to but not quite the same as the typical Bahamut). He's a CHA and WIS based character, with Leadership and now Epic Leadership (which should give an idea of his general direction).

This question is about the Contemplative capstone ability, "Mystic Union," which is almost word-for-word the same as the Monk capstone ability, "Perfect Self."

I was sorely disappointed to reach the end of this class and realize that the capstone was DR/magic, the immunity to some low-level spells, and in my DM's words, "you can go places that only outsiders can go." I'm not sure I would be so disappointed if not for the fact that our druid hit the end of Elemental Savant a couple levels earlier... and her capstone was actually COOL and USEFUL. She got Fly 100ft/round, perfect maneuverability, for example. And there were some pretty big similarities between the two PrC, on the surface.

I'm trying to figure out what to DO with this. Am I reading it right -- it's just the DR and the counting as an outsider for the purpose of spells and magical abilities? That's it?

I keep trying to talk the DM into throwing something else in there, something that makes it a little more comparable to Elemental Savant, but he's not budging, saying that Elemental Savant was better because it didn't get full spell progression.

I'm just really disappointed. I guess I had only ever skimmed the capstone ability before, and assumed that it would be cool fluff-wise, even if it wasn't mechanics-wise (it was disappointing as far as fluff goes, too). And I'm still not totally clear on what, exactly, a native outsider IS. I mean, how can I be an outsider if I'm native to the material plane?

What AM I, and how can I make this cool, when I'm feeling pretty disappointed about it?

...I had wanted to be an angel, fluffwise at least. ;_;

[Mystic Muse]

you're like a Tiefling or Aasimar. Also, now nothing that affects humanoids can affect you. And you can become outsiders using Polymorph now.

you're an outsider that's native to the material plane. It's sort of like an angel. They're native to the celestial planes but are considered "outsiders" on any other plane.

But yeah, this capstone is a bit lackluster.

[druid91]

Well if it works like other outsiders, you should start adventuring on other planes. When you are killed you are instead sent back to the prime material. of course now you can't leave for a very long time but...

[Private-Prinny]

Being an outsider has a couple of advantages. First, you can use Alter Self to become other outsiders, and second, you are now unable to die of old age (IIRC).

[Alleran]

Being an outsider has a couple of advantages. First, you can use Alter Self to become other outsiders, and second, you are now unable to die of old age (IIRC).

I'm fairly sure that native outsiders actually can die of old age, actually, though I can't recall which book it says so in.

[Mystic Muse]

It's in the crystal keep races PDF. Tieflings (Which are also native outsiders) reach Venerable age at 90 years. They're maximum age is 150.

[gdiddy]

I once ran a two-session campaign about two level-20 monks that got Summon Monster XLII 'd into Balor. (What? Doesn't that happen to every outsider occasionally?) The spell was cast by a wacky demon that was trying to create a distraction in Dispater for an invasion of the first layer. Hilarity ensued. Because they were monks.

[Toxic Avenger]

It's in the crystal keep races PDF. Tieflings (Which are also native outsiders) reach Venerable age at 90 years. They're maximum age is 150.

Yep. And aasimar has an age limit listed in Races of Destiny, though I forget what it is at the moment.

Of course, all that is just a Zero Ruling away from oblivion. I know of at least one DM who has done so.

[Doc Roc]

Purchase:
One casting of planar ally.
One Powerstone of True Mindswitch
One casting of polymorph.


Pick a known angelic servitor of bahamut.
Summon with planar ally.
Request that it fail its save against polymorph, turning it into a bunny.
Request that it fail its next save, after informing it of the nature of the effect.
Get a signed informed consent form, available at Cog 0xAF12 in Mechanus.
Manifest true mindswitch with permission from your deity and a willing legal target.

Alternatively, find a way to get polymorph on your spell list, because congrats, you can now assume some of the game's most brutally powerful forms.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also note that according to RAW, the Outsider type grants proficiency with all simple and martial weapons.

[Fizban]

Well, the thing is, the Druid paid for that 100' flight speed. Elemental Savant is a pretty lackluster class, locks you into using a single energy type (which is crippling even with Searing Spell/Piercing Cold), and you lose 2 caster levels as well. You on the other hand, lost no caster levels, while still gaining a handfull of immunities and bonus domains. So yes, she gets a nifty capstone and you don't. Them's the breaks.

Edit: Right, so only 1 rogue level. Much better then. Without the rogue dip you'd have had a least a narrow window of 2 levels where you would have been 2 caster levels ahead, and the differences in the PrCs would have been far more noticeable. Since you had a non-casting dip and the savant only loses 2 levels, and a couple levels after that you hit 9th level spells, it would be very easy not to notice. Being an entire level of spells behind for four levels, using 7th level spells when the other guy's using 8th, and 8th when he's using 9th, until you finally get 9th level spells when they've been old hat for the last two levels, is the balancing factor of the Elemental Savant's possible awesome movement mode.

But most importantly: you're Epic for crying out loud! Flight 100' is nothing to epic characters, you could buy that with pocket change you dug out of the sofa on epic wealth. There is literally an item, the Ring of Solar Wings, that gives you flight 150' good and a huge pair of white wings. Or, there are spells that give you the same bonuses as a Half-Celestial, which you could simply persist through some means and have all day. Or you could as for a ritual to change you into a Half-Celestial instead, or you could do it with a single Wish using the Savage Species rules.

Also edit: and since you're level 21 and not 30 like I thought, the Ring of Solar Wings is still a pretty large chunk of cash. Not impossibly large if you're suffering from flight-envy though.

Now, how do you make being a native outsider awesome? You don't really, that's the point. Aside from alter self/polymorph shenanigans, it doesn't count for much. You could have your followers spam spells that only work on humanoids around you in combat, but those wouldn't have affected you anyway, and the spells won't affect your enemies either. If your DM said that you can go places that only outsiders can go, that sounds pretty much like he's giving you the awesome right there to follow up on. Do some research, find out where you can go now that you couldn't before, then make use of the ability the DM has given you.

[KillianHawkeye]

Furthermore, Contemplative is a caster PrC. It is generally meant to be taken by full casters, or since it's requirements are a little loose, I assume it's also meant to be an easy way to grab disease immunity and slippery mind. Since you're not a full caster with those rogue levels, I don't see why you would take the full 10 levels of a full casting prestige class. Even in epic those ten caster levels mean a lot. If you've been playing the last 16 levels, and started the game with those rogue levels, then you must have had hardly any cleric magic to begin with. I really don't know what's going on here.

1 Rogue, 10 Cleric, 10 Contemplative

You seem to have missed that the OP only has 1 level of Rogue. The other 20 levels are Cleric/Contemplative. Seems full-castery enough to me.

[paddyfool]

Well, the thing is, the Druid paid for that 100' flight speed. Elemental Savant is a pretty lackluster class, locks you into using a single energy type (which is crippling even with Searing Spell/Piercing Cold), and you lose 2 caster levels as well. You on the other hand, lost no caster levels, while still gaining a handfull of immunities and bonus domains. So yes, she gets a nifty capstone and you don't. Them's the breaks.

Agreed.

Furthermore, Contemplative is a caster PrC. It is generally meant to be taken by full casters, or since it's requirements are a little loose, I assume it's also meant to be an easy way to grab disease immunity and slippery mind. Since you're not a full caster with those rogue levels, I don't see why you would take the full 10 levels of a full casting prestige class. Even in epic those ten caster levels mean a lot. If you've been playing the last 16 levels, and started the game with those rogue levels, then you must have had hardly any cleric magic to begin with. I really don't know what's going on here.

He's only got one rogue level. If you look again, you'll see it goes Rogue 1/Cleric 10/Contemplative 10 (although he wrote it in an odd way). Probably he took the rogue level for RP + skills. EDIT: Curse ye, ninjas!

[taltamir]

as a native outsider:
1. You CAN be resurrected if you die.
2. You CANNOT be affected by any spell that targets humanoids (ex: enlarge person, hold person)
3. You CAN be summoned and bound into service using planar binding spells and/or gate.
4. You CAN die of old age.
5. You CAN use spells like alter self, polymorph and polymorph any object to assume the forms of other outsiders... the best choice here is solar. (using polymorph any object the transformation is permanent until dispelled)
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm
6. I don't remember if you can or cannot be banished, I think you can.
7. You gain Darkvision out to 60 feet.
8. You are now proficient with all simple and martial weapons
9. You DO breathe, eat, and sleep.

[Fizban]

*Blink blink*

Wow. I cannot read. My mistake, I'll go fix that post then.

Edit: aaand post fixed. Please see edits for my conspicuously removing foot from mouth.

Re: banishing, you're native to the material plane so you wouldn't be banished from there. On any other plane you automatically gain the Extraplanar subtype, and thus can be Dismissed or Banished, but that happens to a creature of any type not on it's home plane.

[Prime32]

I would ask the DM if the DR/magic can be changed to DR/epic, because otherwise it's rather pointless (and still isn't that hot at your level).

But yeah, being an Outsider is awesome for shapeshifting magic.

[lord_khaine]

dr/magic isnt quite that bad as people make it out to be, to start with there are a lot of things that use natural weapons it will be usefull against.

[Starbuck_II]

dr/magic isnt quite that bad as people make it out to be, to start with there are a lot of things that use natural weapons it will be usefull against.

How about in an epic game? I'm pretty sure most epic creatures can beat Dr/magic.

[Indon]

How about in an epic game? I'm pretty sure most epic creatures can beat Dr/magic.

It has its' occasional uses, mostly as a party trick against legions of mortals. "Oh, look, your swords are useless! (95% and change of the time)"

[KillianHawkeye]

It has its' occasional uses, mostly as a party trick against legions of mortals. "Oh, look, your swords are useless! (95% and change of the time)"

Or in other words, only enemies that are massively weaker than you.

[Indon]

Or in other words, only enemies that are massively weaker than you.

And since CR pretty much disintegrates by that point, that sort of thing can happen in epic.

[paddyfool]

I'd say it's only very situationally useful... e.g., if you're getting targetted by a few hundred archers after getting hit with a Greater Dispel Magic (not sure how this would be affected by mob rules), or if you're inside of an antimagic field.

[lord_khaine]

Or in other words, only enemies that are massively weaker than you.

No, there are lots of strong things it will still work against like, to start with most unarmed outsider like fx a pit fiend, or for that matter a lot of undeads.

[Starbuck_II]

No, there are lots of strong things it will still work against like, to start with most unarmed outsider like fx a pit fiend, or for that matter a lot of undeads.

Wouldn't they just cast spells: PW Stun at will?

[Frozen_Feet]

DR / Magic can be useful. DR 10 / Magic is pretty much meaningless, when a dedicated warrior can strike you for hundreds of points of damage. -_-

[Kobold-Bard]

as a native outsider:
...
3. You CAN be summoned and bound into service using planar binding spells and/or gate
....

So you go through all that just for a Wizard to bind you into servitude.

I know it's not the OP, but Monks just hit the bottom of the barrel.

[Draz74]

How about in an epic game? I'm pretty sure most epic creatures can beat Dr/magic.

No actually, ironically, DR/magic might get better at epic levels. Suddenly all the monsters (and the people who write them) are more worried about overcoming DR/epic than they are about DR/magic ... so suddenly, a lot of monsters' natural weapons no longer overcome DR/magic even if they're similar to weaker monsters who do.

[Kobold-Bard]

No actually, ironically, DR/magic might get better at epic levels. Suddenly all the monsters (and the people who write them) are more worried about overcoming DR/epic than they are about DR/magic ... so suddenly, a lot of monsters' natural weapons no longer overcome DR/magic even if they're similar to weaker monsters who do.

Weapons that overcome DR/Epic automatically overcomes DR/Magic. Epic = +6 enchanted equivalent so you have to have at least +1 enchanted equivalent.

[Eldonauran]

No, no, no, no and NO again for good measure

You are not an outsider. Your type never changes. You do not gain all these benefits.

You are only considered to be an outsider as far as spells or other effects are concerned. Ie, charm person would not work on you but planar binding will.

This is a very common mistake made by a LOT of people.

[Toxic Avenger]

No, no, no, no and NO again for good measure

You are not an outsider. Your type never changes. You do not gain all these benefits.

You are only considered to be an outsider as far as spells or other effects are concerned. Ie, charm person would not work on you but planar binding will.

This is a very common mistake made by a LOT of people.

Ah, I see now...

That makes it suck that much harder.