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    Default My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Int and Wis 10 is average, thus 100 IQ.

    Int is directly related to IQ, hence for every point of Int, you can go 4 points of IQ either way.

    Whereas, Wis is only partly related to IQ, having to do with spatial reasoning, general thoughtfulness and creativity. Thus it is only 2 points of IQ either way. Note that IQ also does not directly relate to perceptive capability - IQ isn't an absolute measurement of someone's mental faculties and nor does it measure charisma.

    Hence, 18 Int and 10 Wis = 136 IQ, 18 Int and 18 Wis = 152 IQ.

    3 Int and 10 Wis = 72 IQ. 3 Int and 18 Wis = 88 IQ, and 3 Int and 3 Wis = 56 IQ. To enroll in special ed, one must take the appropriate flaws.

    IQ is exponential. This is obviously a rough estimate, and I think it provides better reasoning then wizard's totally linear 'Int Score = IQ score x 10' which doesn't even consider wisdom.

    To be a genius, you must have 140 IQ or above. The other 'genius barrier' is 180 IQ. To reach 140 IQ through Int alone, you need at least 20 Int and no Wis penalty. To reach 180 IQ, you need some pretty loony scores.

    In my opinion, there is no such term as 'super genius'. The human mind may be able to comprehend many things, but it can only put to action so many things. Much of science, ie., boils down to work ethic.

    Genius isn't a label either. It's merely an assessment of one's capabilities. Anyone can do anything, it's just that the smarter people accomplish that specific thing more quickly and the wise people determine what has to be done more quickly.
    ------

    So that's my hypothesis. Anyone agree/disagree?

    NOTE: This was taken from another thread to prevent it from burning to the ground with the fact that it was off-topic.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-27 at 11:41 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Interesting and potentially quite useful. I like it.

    Just a note, some of your math seems wrong.
    To me, it seems that 18int/10wis should be 100+(8*4)+(0*2)=132, double 18's should be 100+(8*4)+(8*2)=148, and double 3's should be 100-(7*4)-(7*2)=58.
    Last edited by Townopolis; 2010-04-28 at 12:44 AM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Well, that logic could make sense, until you take a further look at the various things that are tied together with those stats, specificly that skill points depend on your intelligence, which sort of goes against your reasoning in the end.

    In DnD, your intelligence is also a measurement of how much you are already able to do, and not merely a measurement of how quick you are to understand something logically, like IQ would approximately be a measurement of.

    Anyway, I like the idea.

    There is also the problem of age in your assertion.

    IQ is basicly a non-changing factor after the age of 18 for most people; It is possible to increase of decrease your IQ, sure, but for most people, that does not happen and it remains pretty much the same.

    This gives a list of problems:

    1) In DnD, aging increases both Wisdom and Intelligence, which means increased IQ automatically

    2) I know my IQ (not sharing), and if I had to divide it into Intelligence/Wisdom, I would most likely put the majority into Intelligence; I am young (24); I think fast, but would not call myself "wise" (think that would be insulting to people who had studied subjects for longer than I have even lived)
    As I age, I am pretty sure my self image of how to divide it between intelligence and wisdom will change, as I become more "wise" with age; Seeing how my IQ should not change, that would mean my Intelligence should drop 1 point for every 2 point of Wisdom I obtain, which would feel rather silly.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    I've generall viewed Int as acedemic learning ability, whereas Wis is Judgement.

    But in terms of mechanics, an interesting comparison is to look at Search and Spot. Both of these skills do basically similiar things but one is based off Int and the other Wis.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quite interesting idea.
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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    I've generall viewed Int as acedemic learning ability, whereas Wis is Judgement.

    But in terms of mechanics, an interesting comparison is to look at Search and Spot. Both of these skills do basically similiar things but one is based off Int and the other Wis.
    Well search is all about deducing, whereas spot is just perception (notice something in your peripheral that you judge to be out of the ordinary).

    That's the reason. Otherwise, if you were using wis to search then you'd be judging where an object could be based on what makes sense to you and most likely might end up biased to the point that you can't find the object because reality contradicts bias (hence, deduction is required).

    In layman's terms, using wis is like asking 'why would this object not be here? Well theoretically it should be located somewhere else because that's the only other place I would store the object and no one I know of cares about the object besides me and I've never had a history of people stealing my things so if it's not in that location, then finding it is hopeless' - all about induction and forethought.

    Int would be 'if the object is not here then the probability of it being in another location is increased, hence I should keep looking'.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    I like it, although the last theory of int to IQ I saw was IQ=50+5*INT. Which means the lowest you can be is 65 IQ and still be a functional adventurer. Which seems about right. Note that this really only works for humanoids, but so does yours really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    There is also the problem of age in your assertion.
    Well, OotS jokes about how the elderly actually have increased senses over the young adventurers because they get an age related Wis bonus.

    In real life transcribed to D&D, they'd be taking on additional rather crippling flaws (like typical old people stuff, alzheimers, dementia, etc.) - which doesn't usually happen in D&D until someone incorporates a new mechanic and a way to convince players to want to do that and not unbalance the game.

    Also, IQ isn't a direct measure of either Int or Wis - IQ can increase somewhat with experience, but its measurements are never completely accurate.

    The reason Int relates to skills is because Int reflects the ability to absorb knowledge - but not necessarily how much you know; someone with a higher Int modifier has more skill points merely because they have a higher capacity to learn, so inevitably they know more. Interpret and repeat and learn.

    With Wis, you might envision yourself doing that, but it won't help any. Wis is a bit more mystical in the sense that it reflects the ability to exert free will rather then directly relating to IQ (otherwise, it'd just be intelligence). Wis, combined with Int to give us language is what makes us human, because Wis gives us the ability to ask 'why' and be creative. But without Int we'd be emotional canyons of non-progress and virtually indistinguishable from animals (no language helps too - in fact, that's pretty much how animals are).

    that would mean my Intelligence should drop 1 point for every 2 point of Wisdom I obtain, which would feel rather silly.
    Personally, I've found that the more introspective I get the slower my work ethic is. But that could just be me.

    Note that this really only works for humanoids, but so does yours really.
    Anything below 3 Int is totally off the charts, since said person can't read or understand language (an Int of 1 (Cow) compared to 3 (Thog) is probably drastically lower then 8 points of IQ). But yah, it only works for humanoids considering the concept of IQ only works for humans.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-29 at 05:51 AM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    When did Wisdom become creativity?

    I vaguely see how you made it spatial reasoning, but I think this is incorrect. Survival may be wisdom, which helps avoid getting lost, but that's different. Spatial reasoning would be reflected more by Craft skills or Architecture/Geometry, which are all Int. Or, to some extent, by motor skills which are Dex.

    I don't know what thoughtfulness means, so I couldn't say if it's Wisdom or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by imp_fireball View Post
    Wis is a bit more mystical in the sense that it reflects the ability to exert free will rather then directly relating to IQ (otherwise, it'd just be intelligence). Wis, combined with Int to give us language is what makes us human, because Wis gives us the ability to ask 'why' and be creative.
    They why do Skeletons (unintelligent, zero creativity, no free will) have 10 Wisdom? Surely this means creativity and free will would be Intelligence or Charisma instead?
    Last edited by Riffington; 2010-04-29 at 08:52 AM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    They why do Skeletons (unintelligent, zero creativity, no free will) have 10 Wisdom? Surely this means creativity and free will would be Intelligence or Charisma instead?
    Because, mechanically speaking, giving them a lower wisdom would impair their Listen Check. They can listen and see as good as any human peasant, hence the 10 in Wisdom, which is average.

    Don't dig too deep on it.
    A high wisdom can express anything related to how you perceive the world.

    I go by the idea that, if you have to reason, think hard or study, it's intelligence. Basically, you use methodical experimentation and logic to make decisions. Experience give you facts and knowledge upon which you can rely to deduce things. Otherwise, it's Wisdom.

    Wisdom includes also traditions and such : you don't know why your people do something a certain way but it's efficient and prudent so no need to really think too hard about it. Maybe there's a few exemples of people who tried another way and failed. People didn't bother to analyze why the other way failed since their first way still worked.
    Last edited by Johel; 2010-04-29 at 10:32 AM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Johel View Post
    Because, mechanically speaking, giving them a lower wisdom would impair their Listen Check. They can listen and see as good as any human peasant, hence the 10 in Wisdom, which is average.

    Don't dig too deep on it.
    A high wisdom can express anything related to how you perceive the world.
    This.

    Geeez people, there are no chance that D&D stuff will represent something like human (and not only human with the same system, lol) body and mind in a way that won't crumble after 20 seconds of more careful analyze of it.

    It' simple and that's it.
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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    They why do Skeletons (unintelligent, zero creativity, no free will) have 10 Wisdom? Surely this means creativity and free will would be Intelligence or Charisma instead?
    Are animals creative? Creativity partly relies on intelligence and the appropriate environment as well. After all, without language and the ability to learn, our perceptions are that much more limited - if we cannot learn at all, then our perceptions become utterly rudimentary and we are once again akin to something like plants that move (skeletons).

    For humanoids however, creativity relies almost entirely on wisdom - although having knowledge through intelligence may broaden the scope of what we can think about - however, that's generally covered by fluff and roleplaying.

    I don't know what thoughtfulness means, so I couldn't say if it's Wisdom or not.
    Thoughtfulness simply reflects the tendency to think about things and ask 'why' - this is actually more of a personality trait (roleplayed) but in real life, it arrives more in people with higher wisdom scores, since perceiving these things is generally easier for them (note that some wise people are apathetic and simply don't care). Intelligence on the other hand is all about knowing 'what' and finding out 'what'.

    Note that even creatures with 0 wisdom are capable of free will, it's just that they will lose the ability to perceive the environment around them - they will fall helpless, unable to orient their bodies. This is unrelated to dexterity, where if Dex were 0 the person would fall helpless due to their muscles being unresponsive, sluggish and unco-ordinated.

    Creatures with no wis score don't have free will. Plants have no wis score because they are simply organic matter rather then anything with any sentience (consciousness) whatsoever.

    Sentience is reflected by having a wisdom score. Sapience (ability to reason while being conscious) is reflected by having an Int of 3 or higher and a wisdom score.

    Note that a construct with no Wis score can still have a charisma score - say if it has pre-programmed responses according to what people say to it and if it can demonstrate realistic, appropriate emotions.
    If it is incapable of 'loading other programs' then it might have no Int score either. Such a program would be highly complex nonetheless, magical or not.
    ----

    Wisdom is spatial reasoning in the sense that it is what allows a creature to orient itself through free will. I'm not refering to spatial reasoning in the sense of textiles or learned skills, rather, just simple perceptive capabilities (the person is far away, the person is beside me, etc.). Dexterity allows a character to move their hand in a certain way, whereas wisdom tells them that their hand just moved and that it did what they told it to, hence they may then will themselves to repeat the action.
    -----

    As for emotion, that is not an ability score and neither is memory (both are roleplayed). Being emotional is merely a state of mind, whereas reflecting the appropriate emotions that other may perceive of you in given situations is charisma.

    People with high charisma naturally learn to pull the heart strings of others since it generally comes easy to them (thus, they can act, bluff, intimidate, etc.).

    Wisdom includes also traditions and such : you don't know why your people do something a certain way but it's efficient and prudent so no need to really think too hard about it. Maybe there's a few exemples of people who tried another way and failed. People didn't bother to analyze why the other way failed since their first way still worked.
    Wisdom is also considered the 'common sense' stat since it reflects the ability to make good inductive reasoning. The wise shaman carries on with traditions, not only because common sense would keep him in his position, but also so that he may philosophize ways in which to connect traditions to his position and further his career path.

    Profession uses wisdom because it involves a lot of inductive reasoning to do with running a business - too much of running a business requires 'street smarts', too much of which isn't covered in a text book or manual.

    Survival is similar in that it relies on the ability to properly think ahead. Note that anyone can think ahead if they care to, but knowing what to think about is wisdom.

    Craft on the other hand requires narrow deductions in order to make things properly fit together and not fall apart. The same knowledge (architecture & engineering) and other 'spatial reasoning' skills. IMO, knowledge (architecture & engineering) has to do more with architectural trends and why they work (according to what a given civilization in the setting knows about architecture and engineering). Also, engineering mostly likely explicitly refers to structural engineering (other fields are simply applied mathematics; and while structural engineering is that too, the knowledge skill is rather explicit).

    Finally, 'putting the pieces together' or connecting up pieces of seemingly unrelated information by means of deduction (different from 'narrow deduction) is mostly wisdom - a score that investigators generally rely on to give them that 'hunch' or 'gut feeling'.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-29 at 12:49 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by imp_fireball View Post
    Are animals creative?
    Not particularly. This is further evidence that creativity should be Intelligence or Charisma, not Wisdom.

    For humanoids however, creativity relies almost entirely on wisdom -
    I'm not saying this is necessarily wrong - but where is it coming from? There aren't really creative skills that are wisdom based. It's not in the wisdom entry. To the extent that wisdom is "having good instincts/traditions" - well that's sort of the opposite of creativity. So I'm just trying to figure out where you're getting this.


    Thoughtfulness simply reflects the tendency to think about things and ask 'why' - this is actually more of a personality trait (roleplayed) but in real life, it arrives more in people with higher wisdom scores, since perceiving these things is generally easier for them (note that some wise people are apathetic and simply don't care). Intelligence on the other hand is all about knowing 'what' and finding out 'what'.
    I completely disagree with this, then. A person who just asks "what" and memorizes a bunch of facts isn't smart or intelligent. The smart-but-unwise stereotype of the mad scientist is forever asking "why".

    Now, if by thoughtfulness you mean "remembers your mom's birthday" then I can totally agree it's Wisdom.


    Wisdom is spatial reasoning in the sense that it is what allows a creature to orient itself through free will. I'm not refering to spatial reasoning in the sense of textiles or learned skills, rather, just simple perceptive capabilities (the person is far away, the person is beside me, etc.).
    Ok, so spatial reasoning (the ability to mentally manipulate shapes in an abstract fashion) is still Intelligence, but perception is Wisdom?
    Last edited by Riffington; 2010-04-29 at 12:48 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    To the extent that wisdom is "having good instincts/traditions" - well that's sort of the opposite of creativity.
    No, that's the opposite of liberalism. Being creative doesn't necessarily mean 'being liberal'. That would be an example of bad inductive reasoning.

    Wisdom = tradition is a stereotype. Also 'traditions' could actually refer to fundamentals, which could apply to 'character' or 'moral grounding'.

    I completely disagree with this, then. A person who just asks "what" and memorizes a bunch of facts isn't smart or intelligent. The smart-but-unwise stereotype of the mad scientist is forever asking "why".
    Sorry if I poorly worded it. The absent minded scientist cliche is forever asking why because they are infinitely curious about finite details. Anyone can ask why, and anyone can be curious - but in a sense, being wise is the ability to ask the right questions or to know to ask why with less provocation. Does that make sense?

    Now, if by thoughtfulness you mean "remembers your mom's birthday" then I can totally agree it's Wisdom.
    Thoughtfulness would also reflect remembering what your mom desires and then tailoring an appropriate gift for her via compensation when they don't have the right gift available in the store.

    Ok, so spatial reasoning (the ability to mentally manipulate shapes in an abstract fashion) is still Intelligence, but perception is Wisdom?
    Exactly.

    Spatial reasoning is actually just a term, while spatial and reasoning are separate words that can reflect the context of anything when combined together. That's how I got the words confused.
    ----
    Not particularly. This is further evidence that creativity should be Intelligence or Charisma, not Wisdom.
    You missed the part where I said that having Int less than 3 limits learning and experience, hence animals and other such beings are ultimately far less creative no matter what their wisdom score is.

    -----
    Because wisdom is free will and reflects a sense of self, wisdom modifier applies to will save.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-29 at 01:00 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by imp_fireball View Post
    No, that's the opposite of liberalism. Being creative doesn't necessarily mean 'being liberal'. That would be an example of bad inductive reasoning.
    Hrm, I must have poorly worded this. I don't mean to say anything political.
    I mean, if you have a good instinct/tradition like "Oh, the milk smells a little funny so I throw it away. Not sure if it's good or not, not really curious, I just throw it out" - well, that's the Wise thing to do. It's not liberal/conservative, it's not intelligent, it's just wise.
    Or if you hear about a nifty loan proposal and it looks great on paper but smells off, and you instead listen to your gut or stick with the traditional loans you're used to - it's uncreative, but high-Wisdom.

    Sorry if I poorly worded it. The absent minded scientist cliche is forever asking why because they are infinitely curious about finite details. Anyone can ask why, and anyone can be curious - but in a sense, being wise is the ability to ask the right questions or to know to ask why with less provocation. Does that make sense?
    The absent minded scientist cliche is not curious about mere details. She's curious about the great Why.
    I'm not sure if that answers what you're saying, maybe you can clarify?

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    "Oh, the milk smells a little funny so I throw it away. Not sure if it's good or not, not really curious, I just throw it out" - well, that's the Wise thing to do.
    Actually it's more 'Oh, the milk smells a little funny so I'll throw it away. I'm not at all curious why, because I know that there's really nothing I can get out of being curious about this.'

    The absent minded scientist cliche is not curious about mere details. She's curious about the great Why.
    I'm not sure if that answers what you're saying, maybe you can clarify?
    Asking why the universe exists the way it does is a question that anyone can ask, wise or not. The absent minded scientist is easily side tracked however. They might use the 'great why' as an excuse to practice, or simply because they take from other scientists who have asked the same perpetual question.

    Some people can be curious about why things exist without having a high wisdom score - it's just that they won't be able to work out the answer to their own questions with common sense. Rather, they will resort to intensive experimentation. If they also have a low or average Int score, they may give up and resort to apathy.

    A mad scientist with low wisdom may be completely away from the norm (despite's the norm's tendency to follow the masses and not execute free will itself), but this is mainly due to a variety of factors - such as social history, past experiences, etc. They may also ignore the good advice of peers to cease and desist (arguing that 'people are against them' or 'don't appreciate success'), due to their absent mindedness (low Wis).

    A wise but uintelligent person would know not to attempt to figure out why the universe exists through science because they realize that it'd take far too much effort for them.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-29 at 01:18 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    I've always thought that INT was directly related to IQ by the equation, IQ = 10 x INT. This is proven true for me by those online IQ quiz things and those online D&D stat quizes. My IQ is 156 my INT is always rated as 15 or 16. Course there could be bias from the people who make these quizes to make them match up, but it convinced me they were directly related.

    Basically, I don't think WIS is a factor in deciding IQ.

    Additionally, IQ has two definitions. The most common definition is that IQ is your mental age divided by your physical age times 100. That idea doesn't really work for D&D where different lifespanned races don't have different IQs. It also doesn't work in the real world. IQ should not change as people get older, so how do you explain someone who has 150 IQ who lives to be 94 years old without dementia or Alzheimers. Is their mental age 141 years old? Nobody lives to be that old!

    The second definition is the one I like to use. Every ten steps of IQ is one standard deviation. Thus, the IQ range of 90-110 encompasses about 2/3 of humanity (or I suppose all existence in D&D). This one works better for when people get older. Not sure if it works better if we include all of existence in D&D. The scale isn't meant to include creatures such as animals.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    That idea doesn't really work for D&D where different lifespanned races don't have different IQs.
    Well I could easily argue that not every race is human. Hence, not all races think the same and must measure IQ differently.

    Additionally, IQ has two definitions. The most common definition is that IQ is your mental age divided by your physical age times 100. That idea doesn't really work for D&D where different lifespanned races don't have different IQs. It also doesn't work in the real world. IQ should not change as people get older, so how do you explain someone who has 150 IQ who lives to be 94 years old without dementia or Alzheimers. Is their mental age 141 years old? Nobody lives to be that old!
    This is probably some old fashioned definition based on the tradition that 'older = wiser = higher IQ, because wisdom and intelligence are the same thing'. In real life, intelligence is an entire broad class covering all variety of cognitive mental attributes - whereas in D&D, the score 'intelligence' is a bit different.

    Thus, the IQ range of 90-110 encompasses about 2/3 of humanity (or I suppose all existence in D&D).
    Not every race has +0 Int in D&D. That's a very broad generalization.

    I've always thought that INT was directly related to IQ by the equation, IQ = 10 x INT. This is proven true for me by those online IQ quiz things and those online D&D stat quizes. My IQ is 156 my INT is always rated as 15 or 16. Course there could be bias from the people who make these quizes to make them match up, but it convinced me they were directly related.
    My IQ is 127 but one of those quizes told me my Int was 18 (probably the same one that gave a 19 to some people too). Not necessarily the best standard to go by.
    -----

    The reason I believe Wis (at least partially) relates to IQ is because some of the questions seen on IQ tests frequently ask for inductive reasoning - ie. Cat is to mouse as Toad is to... ? Technically there's multiple ways in which a cat could relate to a mouse, hence another animal could be dirived to relate to a toad in a similar manner (besides the obvious one being insect or another, more specific answer like 'mosquito' or 'fly') - however the question desires only one answer. It's an example of narrow inductive reasoning (can't remember what it's called exactly).

    There's also other questions such as how anger - rage relates to other phrases such as happy - ecstatic or controlled - uncontrolled, etc. Which require Wis. Not really any wrong answer to those sorts of questions.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-29 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by imp_fireball View Post
    The reason I believe Wis (at least partially) relates to IQ is because some of the questions seen on IQ tests frequently ask for inductive reasoning - ie. Cat is to mouse as Toad is to... ? Technically there's multiple ways in which a cat could relate to a mouse, hence another animal could be dirived to relate to a toad in a similar manner (besides the obvious one being insect or another, more specific answer like 'mosquito' or 'fly') - however the question desires only one answer. It's an example of narrow inductive reasoning (can't remember what it's called exactly).

    There's also other questions such as how anger - rage relates to other phrases such as happy - ecstatic or controlled - uncontrolled, etc. Which require Wis. Not really any wrong answer to those sorts of questions.
    That's reasoning, as you pointed out. It's your ability to build conscious, logical links between things...and being right about it.
    And that's Intelligence.
    "-Cat is a mammal. Mouse is a mammal. What is Toad ? I learned it's a amphibian. THerefore, answer must be some kind of amphibian. Is there an amphibian in the list ? No. Therefore, it's not the correct logic link.
    Cat eats mouses. What does the Toad eats ? I have learned it eats insects. Therefore, answer must be insects. Is "Insect" in the list ?"


    If you were to simply throw a wild guess and you happened to be right, then it would be Wisdom.
    "-Cat... Mouse... Toad... What are the answers. Hmmm... I kinda feel it must be Insect. Because it feels right. Also, the other answers don't look that good. Dog ? Who would associate Toad and Dog ? Ah !! Can't say why it's wrong but that's obviously wrong !!"

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    If you were to simply throw a wild guess and you happened to be right, then it would be Wisdom.
    No, that'd be luck.

    Dog ? Who would associate Toad and Dog ? Ah !! Can't say why it's wrong but that's obviously wrong !!"
    More like "Dog? Why associate a Toad with a Dog? I don't recall toads licking dogs in their natural habitat. So, obviously wrong."

    They'd also have more control over their emotions and decision making skills (so none of the hair pulling whenever they realize they must rely on a hunch).

    "-Cat is a mammal. Mouse is a mammal. What is Toad ? I learned it's a amphibian. THerefore, answer must be some kind of amphibian. Is there an amphibian in the list ? No. Therefore, it's not the correct logic link.
    Cat eats mouses. What does the Toad eats ? I have learned it eats insects. Therefore, answer must be insects. Is "Insect" in the list ?"
    If the test wasn't multiple choice, then the intelligent (with D&D intelligence mind you) person would probably get the question wrong.

    They'd end up saying "Is amphibian on the list? Crap, there's no list on here. Okay so... crap. This is stupid. I'll just guess. Say, a turtle. How does that sound?"

    Here's an interesting read:
    http://able2know.org/topic/95782-1
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-29 at 03:00 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    I'm not sure IQ works here, but here is my opinion. Wisdom is what you perceive and how clear you perceive your world and int determines how you can analyze, adsorb info from, or reason about what you perceive.

    Examples:

    Average-int=10,wis=10 sees the world pretty standardly, interprets and understands it pretty averagely

    High wisdom, low int- 3 int, 18 wisdom This thing can clearly perceive it's world but its brain really cant get much from it-like showing a chicken court papers, the chicken can see the papers just fine, but cannot analyze or understand them.

    High int low wisdom- int 18, wisdom 3- This thing (is probably nuts) cannot perceive it's world well but is able to understand what they perceive. This is odd though, in that they perceive something different than what is actually there and then make very high level predictions or actions based on that of which most people cannot make sense of.

    It could be related to a computer int=computers cpu speed and RAM wisdom=its keyboard, mouse, cd drive speed and internet speed. Even the fastest computer can't do much without accurate input. Conversely a master typist with 22x write speed drive and gigabit internet can't do much with a computer that has trouble getting out of its own way. Hope this helps clear the confusion.

    Open to input...

    EDIT: Sorry if it looked like RAM was part of wisdom, it was meant to int *Posted this whole thing when my brain had already entered autopilot for the evening so had a few mistakes sorry
    Last edited by theos911; 2010-04-30 at 05:06 AM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by theos911 View Post
    I'm not sure IQ works here, but here is my opinion. Wisdom is what you perceive and how clear you perceive your world and int determines how you can analyze, adsorb info from, or reason about what you perceive.

    Examples:

    Average-int=10,wis=10 sees the world pretty standardly, interprets and understands it pretty averagely

    High wisdom, low int- 3 int, 18 wisdom This thing can clearly perceive it's world but its brain really cant get much from it-like showing a chicken court papers, the chicken can see the papers just fine, but cannot analyze or understand them.

    High int low wisdom- int 18, wisdom 3- This thing (is probably nuts) cannot perceive it's world well but is able to understand what they perceive. This is odd though, in that they perceive something different than what is actually there and then make very high level predictions or actions based on that of which most people cannot make sense of.

    It could be related to a computer int=computers cpu speed and RAM wisdom=its keyboard, mouse, cd drive speed and internet speed. Even the fastest computer can't do much without accurate input. Conversely a master typist with 22x write speed drive and gigabit internet can't do much with a computer that has trouble getting out of its own way. Hope this helps clear the confusion.

    Open to input...
    I agree with your analysis. Non-metaphorically speaking, however, a computer's RAM would be just be intelligence again - the ability to handle large sums of data inflow simultaneously.

    Also, people with high Int but low Wis tend to be 'self-absorbed' and non-empathetic. Bad at giving direction but good at figuring out a problem if they're directed towards the problem.

    It's why the rogue often has high Int but low Wis (and not just for optimization/role related reasons) - they keep stealing to test their intellect even though stealing is generally bad idea since it lands you time. A wise rogue would more likely cease stealing and become an entrepreneur that cons people in another way, except in rare cases where the thrill of the theft might be too enjoyable for them (and they have an ego streak to boot).

    Comparitively, all the above rogues would be of the same alignment.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-29 at 08:55 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Going back a bit, I would rate charisma as the most important stat for creativity, followed by int then wisdom. Mainly because charisma is supposedly force of personality and will (why it isn't linked to will saves, I don't know.)

    To be creative you need to be able to think up of an idea, wisdom to figure out what someone would need (step skipped in most absent minded scientist motifs), then the intelligence to be able to make something useful. Charisma is need to give the drive to finish anything more complex than a chair.

    Also 18-3 examples are fairly meaningless as any combination of that in the mental stats would make for a fairly impossible concept. I have always considered that such things is basically a mental deficit of some sort, such as schizophrenia. Anything below probably a 7 combined with an 18 makes for such a character.

    This goes for any of the mental stats. Although I have never really found a way for an idiot savant to exist, probably just skill focus or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    How about this?

    Intelligence is your 'mental muscle,' which lets you to easily 'lift' heavier ideas that others struggle with, or even heavier ideas that others find impossible to lift on their own.

    If intelligence is your mental strength, then wisdom is your mental constitution and fortitude, or endurance. It represents your ability to stay focused or engaged, to keep an open mind, etc. Someone with low wisdom is 'intellectually lazy.' They're easily distracted, and will space out or go into 'autopilot' sooner. They rely on assumptions or leap quickly to conclusions, and don't mind letting others doing their thinking for them, because its a hassle to do it themselves.

    Charisma is your passion and desire, your confidence and self-perception, which lends naturally to being able to express yourself. Someone with charisma is someone who knows what they want in life, and has the energy to pursue that goal, while someone with low charisma is perfectly happy to get stuck in a rut, content to waste away their evenings...even their entire life...merely waiting for something to change for them.
    Last edited by Shalist; 2010-04-29 at 10:24 PM.
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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Going back a bit, I would rate charisma as the most important stat for creativity, followed by int then wisdom. Mainly because charisma is supposedly force of personality and will (why it isn't linked to will saves, I don't know.)
    You're misinterpreting what the fluff intended to say. Charisma is not at all creativity - how exactly are celebrities at all creative?

    Music artists that are creative are wise or have spent hours conceptualizing their songs so that they don't need the wisdom bonus. Perform is a charisma related check because it takes the ability to go beyond social comfort level to get into the music and play really well. Also a high charisma entices the audience to the performance more - the song doesn't necessarily need to be creative, but making big bucks as a musician on a record label could depend on profession (musician), which requires Wis - and then fans listen to the music and a cult is formed appreciating the creativity and depth of what the musician wrote for his music. Passers by don't usually pay attention to this sort of thing, and merely prefer to rate the quality of the performance rather then the content (which is why say, Hannah Montana is popular - completely uncreative but charismatic enough that little girls buy her up).

    Finally, force of personality is the ability to externalize your emotions and influence others. 'Will', by the context of its use in the sentence (and of what I'm most definitely sure they meant) is exerting your will upon a social situation.

    You don't necessarily need to have high will power, rather, through will alone, you can control a social scenario with your high charisma. Actual wisdom is required to deal with discomfort (perceive it and then adjust your mental state accordingly; maybe by thinking 'I've felt worse' or 'think happy thoughts!'), hence it empowers will saves.

    Real life Example: Note that a lot of 'social butterflies' can be really squeamish about silly little things that can simply be resisted with force of will. Ie. "Omigod is that a spider?!" With will power, she'd be able to suck it up and just kill the darn thing, but since she lacks the necessary will power, she's unable to control her emotions and be pro-active in any way towards the situation.

    If you know how to be wise, then you can tailor greater control over your own thoughts (hence higher will saves).

    Someone with low wisdom is 'intellectually lazy.'
    Not everyone would call them 'intellectually lazy'. They might be workaholics who think they are genuinely excellent people in all aspects of their lives (my dad is an actual example of this ). Many times, they can be called all sorts of things like 'rash', 'obtuse', 'hesitant', or 'un-decisive'. Note that most of those are just personality traits, however - a person can be both wise and hesitant (maybe because they're generally paranoid), ie.

    I have always considered that such things is basically a mental deficit of some sort, such as schizophrenia. Anything below probably a 7 combined with an 18 makes for such a character.
    You could role play such a character, but mechanically it doesn't match up. A schizoid (big flaw) would more likely be afflicted with periodic uncontrollable bouts of unreasoning fear. Because the mechanics don't match up, it's more difficult to roleplay - and if you act accordingly (ie. abandon the party to supplement a schizo panic attack Burn after Reading George Clooney style), that just makes your friends angry. Which is why I disagree with that assessment.

    To be creative you need to be able to think up of an idea
    In that sense, anyone can be creative if they are willing. It's just that wisdom provokes good creativity - or good use of creativity. Which pretty much makes it directly related. If you can observe many things, then you can put many things together and come up with something entirely new.

    With Int, nothing comes together. You might try to be creative, but then some nerd will call you out and say that its 'been done before' without you realizing it - even after you did the research (and its difficult to research pop culture without knowing exactly what to look for; many people get lost in tvtropes).

    Intelligence is your 'mental muscle,' which lets you to easily 'lift' heavier ideas that others struggle with, or even heavier ideas that others find impossible to lift on their own.
    More like 'heavier formulas' or 'heavier chew'. It's basically just processing power. 'Ideas', depending on the content, might fall into wisdom because you'd have to perceive how they appropriately apply to existing prevalent ideas that are in use.

    Charisma is your passion and desire
    Nay, charisma is your ability to reflect that you have passion and desire. Anyone can be passionate and full of desire. Emotion ain't an ability score.

    your confidence and self-perception
    I think what you meant for the latter was 'self security' which lends itself to confidence. As for perception, it allows you to perceive the atmosphere of social circumstances in the immediate vicinity (as in 'why would she wear that ugly outfit on a day like today?'; whereas wisdom would tell you 'she decided to wear that outfit today' or 'seems foolish and probably will result in a bunch of females giving dirty looks', and intelligence would tell you that her outfit consists largely of nylon). Not much else.

    Charisma is need to give the drive to finish anything more complex than a chair.
    No, charisma is the drive to make your design phase seem captivating and intelligent without being overly dramatic (insert scene in death note with Light Yagami writing furiously for the latter and/or biting a potato chip in slow motion). With charisma, you can make people think all sorts of things since it also relates to acting.

    This goes for any of the mental stats. Although I have never really found a way for an idiot savant to exist, probably just skill focus or something.
    Just invent a feat or trait and discuss it with the GM. Maybe you could invest higher ranks then allowable per level in a handful of skills (thus synergy bonus is received at first level).

    If intelligence is your mental strength, then wisdom is your mental constitution and fortitude, or endurance.
    I agree, except for the latter 'endurance' which relates more to constitution, however you can use will power to force yourself to greater lengths of mental endurance in real life - will power is somewhat connected with wisdom.

    It represents your ability to stay focused or engaged
    Concentrate relies on constitution actually. Also being focused and engaged relates to work ethic, which is more intelligence, imo (but not enough to have any effect in D&D - although the academic and the wizard both rely on Int and they happen to study and remain focused and engaged on specific topics of interest). It'd suck if the GM forced you to make an Int check.

    I think what you meant was that Wisdom is related to empathy - the ability to perceive the emotional state of others. Hence, they can be engaged in that sense, basically by finding reason to continue working or adventuring rather then because you simply have a desire to finish something and satisfy your daily dose of mind fuel (intelligence for the latter), etc.

    They're easily distracted, and will space out or go into 'autopilot' sooner. They rely on assumptions or leap quickly to conclusions, and don't mind letting others doing their thinking for them, because its a hassle to do it themselves.
    The stereotypically unwise person will do this, yes.

    which lends naturally to being able to express yourself.
    Wikipedia actually considers charisma a 'supernatural ability' because it hasn't been closely studied enough. Currently, it's confirmed that charismatic people simply have it and that's that.

    One can raise their charisma slightly by going out more or getting involved in social activities or learning to perceive conversational subtleties or attend public speaking seminars - but that's about it.

    Someone with charisma is someone who knows what they want in life, and has the energy to pursue that goal, while someone with low charisma is perfectly happy to get stuck in a rut, content to waste away their evenings...even their entire life...merely waiting for something to change for them.
    Those are more personality traits actually - not at all related to ability scores. Note however that a charismatic person might find an easier time reflecting positivity coupled by more friends in high school and a wise person might be negative and introspective because they perceive the world to be a dung hole coupled by little else that makes them happy, like friends if they have any (which is really just a teenage phase or depression).

    Charisma is need to give the drive to finish anything more complex than a chair.
    Again, the drive to finish something you started is a personality trait. In D&D it's intelligence (craft check), which makes sense considering it reflects work ethic. Unless of course you had a spell like ability to craft things quickly that relied on Charisma - but that's another story.

    Charisma makes sense in the context of sorcerers - they are 'convincing' magic to be wielded by them each time they cast a spell. Clerics are trying to use their force of will and perception to direct a spell at an opponent (because their deity might have limited ability to perceive the material plane as well as mortals), hence they use wisdom. Druids also use wisdom to make what they imagine reality - through meditation, they tune into nature, give it rudimentary sentience through mental guidance (which requires perception/wisdom); all in the course of a standard action to cast the spell.

    Wizards are trying to recall the semantics of a spell in their head, hence they use intelligence. Psions use intelligence because of their natural psionic ability to manifest up to their daily power point limit - they overwhelm enemies with brain power rather then force of will or imagination or personality. Psychic Warriors meditate to gain control of their powers so that they may direct with their will power while incorporating their martial prowess. Wilders are natural becons of psychic might, they need only convince reality to tame itself to their choosing - however this overwhelms them more quickly then other psychic classes since their power is channeled upon the plane of time and space through their mind subconsciously. Monk's unify body and mind, which requires perception of the self and much meditation in order to orient all of their visceral responses accordingly. Bards make arcane magic fall in love with them through music or other performance, directing it with suggestions (and later on they gain the ability to make suggestions on creatures, so it makes sense).

    Paladins are chosen hubs of a given deity or ideal - they use their charisma to make themselves seem more imposing so that divine magic will naturally flow through them better. In non-home brew (crappy) version, however, deities still require mortal perception to help direct their divine energies, hence a paladin uses wisdom to cast spells. A ranger uses wisdom for the same reason that a druid uses wisdom, but with less of the 'allied to nature' fluff (they may be more liable to only bargain with nature, hence why they aren't always neutral aligned like druids).
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-29 at 11:58 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    My Basic Analysis

    Wisdom=Perception, Control of one's emotion
    Int=Calculation and Understanding(not of emotion but of things and concepts that are non-emotional)
    Cha=Ability to express emotion so "average" others may understand it, ability to understand other's emotion

    NOTICE-There is a fine line between Wisdom's ability to control your own emotion and cha's ability to express that emotion. Basically you perceive with wis then calculate how that affects you(int). Your wisdom then determines how that affect makes you feel, and how you will deal with it. Charisma then allows you to express how you feel or explain what you perceived so others may perceive similar things, and understand how you felt/perceived it.

    Cha reasoning vs. int reasoning

    There is a girl crying, some workmen nearby, and a fallen ladder.

    Int reasoning says "She must of fallen off the ladder, she must be hurt"

    Charisma reasoning says "Her father may of been a workmen and fallen and gotten hurt, she must be sad"

    Creativity- I'm gonna say it's charisma, since i think charisma is the ability to express emotion which can be hard and may need to reworded or reworked many times for someone to understand-hence creativity Though, I think int kinda ropes in creativity so its still useful for the situation at hand.

    You are drawing a flower for a nature art contest. Creativity says give it purple petals even though its a daffodil. Then give it a bonnet or bowtie. Then make it dance. Then make it look like a performer in a dance studio.
    Int reigns that in to only relevant things such as the purple petals and the bonnet or bowtie-hence int limits creativity so that is useful in the situation.

    Couldn't think of a better word than limits High int doesn't make you less creative as limit would imply, it merely allows better focus and relevancy to that creativity.
    Last edited by theos911; 2010-04-30 at 05:42 AM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by theos911 View Post
    My Basic Analysis

    Wisdom=Perception, Control of one's emotion
    Int=Calculation and Understanding(not of emotion but of things and concepts that are non-emotional)
    Cha=Ability to express emotion so "average" others may understand it, ability to understand other's emotion

    NOTICE-There is a fine line between Wisdom's ability to control your own emotion and cha's ability to express that emotion. Basically you perceive with wis then calculate how that affects you(int). Your wisdom then determines how that affect makes you feel, and how you will deal with it. Charisma then allows you to express how you feel or explain what you perceived so others may perceive similar things, and understand how you felt/perceived it.

    Cha reasoning vs. int reasoning

    There is a girl crying, some workmen nearby, and a fallen ladder.

    Int reasoning says "She must of fallen off the ladder, she must be hurt"

    Charisma reasoning says "Her father may of been a workmen and fallen and gotten hurt, she must be sad"

    Creativity- I'm gonna say it's charisma, since i think charisma is the ability to express emotion which can be hard and may need to reworded or reworked many times for someone to understand-hence creativity Though, I think int kinda ropes in creativity so its still useful for the situation at hand.

    You are drawing a flower for a nature art contest. Creativity says give it purple petals even though its a daffodil. Then give it a bonnet or bowtie. Then make it dance. Then make it look like a performer in a dance studio.
    Int reigns that in to only relevant things such as the purple petals and the bonnet or bowtie-hence int limits creativity so that is useful in the situation.

    Couldn't think of a better word than limits High int doesn't make you less creative as limit would imply, it merely allows better focus and relevancy to that creativity.
    You seem to think that Int being logic means it is relevant to one's ability to perceive.

    Although anyone can be creative, wisdom makes for good creativity.

    It would take wisdom to recognize that a dancing flower with purple petals and a bow tie is or is not relevant or does or does not look like a daffodil when it has purple petals. It would take Int to realize that daffodils don't have purple petals - you aren't perceiving this, you are remembering it from a list of facts about daffodils. How could you simply look at a daffodil and know that it does not have purple petals without looking at every other daffodil in the universe? That would be bad inductive reasoning. It would take wisdom to realize that. It would take Int to recognize what inductive reasoning is in the precise sense of the term (remembering the definition rather then coming up with your own definition).

    It would take charisma to tailor the dancing flower with purple petals to be made appropriately cute when intended or explain what your intentions were to the judges in the art contest and eliciting the reaction you want from the judges.

    Coming up with the scenario you detailed above would take wisdom. It would take wisdom on my part to explain in the way that reflects all the points that I desire. It would take charisma or intelligence to explain it in a way that you understand.

    There is a fine line between Wisdom's ability to control your own emotion and cha's ability to express that emotion.
    Hardly. Just because they both have to do with emotion doesn't mean they're related. Say you control your emotion with wisdom. If you have a low charisma people might think that you are stupid when you don't react in the ways that they wish you to react.

    Int reasoning says "She must of fallen off the ladder, she must be hurt"
    Int would allow workers to remember that when someone falls off a ladder, they may be hurt. Wis would tell them that the girl must have fallen off the ladder.

    Charisma reasoning says "Her father may of been a workmen and fallen and gotten hurt, she must be sad"
    It would take wisdom to recognize that too. Note that wisdom can come up with many conclusions. It would take wisdom to notice from a glance that the girl is not laying on the ground, or wounded. It takes wisdom to interpret that the emotions are directed towards her father who may be nearby. That's empathy.

    It takes charisma to be able to look appropriately concerned when your supervisor looks to you for assistance in this scenario. It takes charisma to recognize that all the other workers may or may not feel the same way you do - but only when they give the appropriate stimuli that's recognizable (ie. 'that's horrible!' one of them would cry, but the tone of his voice indicates he's putting up a bit of an act; wisdom would tell you that he's trying to save his own skin. In reality, he may feel genuinely terrible about the situation, but he's not great at showing emotion and so it only sounds like he's acting - but you wouldn't be able to tell this with charisma).

    Basically you perceive with wis then calculate how that affects you(int). Your wisdom then determines how that affect makes you feel, and how you will deal with it. Charisma then allows you to express how you feel or explain what you perceived so others may perceive similar things, and understand how you felt/perceived it.
    Your extrapolating a little too much here. The first sentence all has to do with wis. Calculating how something affects you takes wisdom, because you are perceiving what will occur in the future or how future events may be modified to what you previously imagined.

    Determining how something makes you feel requires no ability score. Everyone instinctively knows how they feel - it's just that they have varying capability of expressing these feelings. Someone who says 'I don't know how I feel' is usually attempting to brush off the question or has had difficulty expressing the emotions in the past.

    I agree with your analysis of charisma though.

    Note that while the ability scores might seem to overlap, they really don't - they're quite far apart. It's just that human psychology is very abstract - particularly to do with wisdom. Wisdom is very very difficult to measure, as was explained in the article I linked.

    The only time, IMO, the ability scores come to close to overlapping is wisdom's ability to perceive everything and charisma's perception of the immediate social atmosphere.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-04-30 at 11:19 PM.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    I know what my IQ is. I'm also pretty sure I have a Wis of about 8. Your system would require me to have 23 Int. I'm not entirely sure how I manage that, as a human.
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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Imp_Fireball, you underestimate Charisma. Charisma is "actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting"

    So Bob Dylan is a great example of a high-charisma person without much in the way of social skills. Super creative, strong force of personality - you meet him and you know he's Someone. But he never bothered to buy many ranks in Diplomacy or Perform - hence, many people call him both Great and annoying at the same time.

    An uncharismatic person with good social skills just has that - good social skills. When it comes to Will - Charisma is the ability to make your will shine forth brightly and do things with it (ie Will's equivalent of Strength); Wisdom is the ability to keep your will constant and use it as endurance (ie Will's equivalent of Constitution). You must have all three (Int, Wis, Cha) to have free will, of course.

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    Default Re: My Opinion of Int and Wis in 3.X

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    Imp_Fireball, you underestimate Charisma. Charisma is "actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting"

    So Bob Dylan is a great example of a high-charisma person without much in the way of social skills. Super creative, strong force of personality - you meet him and you know he's Someone. But he never bothered to buy many ranks in Diplomacy or Perform - hence, many people call him both Great and annoying at the same time.

    An uncharismatic person with good social skills just has that - good social skills. When it comes to Will - Charisma is the ability to make your will shine forth brightly and do things with it (ie Will's equivalent of Strength); Wisdom is the ability to keep your will constant and use it as endurance (ie Will's equivalent of Constitution). You must have all three (Int, Wis, Cha) to have free will, of course.
    Exactly what I meant to say. Except for the last paragraph.

    Unless by 'free will' you mean 'free range will that does whatever it desires'. By free will, I mean the technical reference to free will, simple sentience - the ability to feel and react accordingly and the ability to act as an individual consciousness.


    It's possible to have decent social skills without charisma - much of it depends on wisdom too. Instinctively knowing that people may be upset when you burp loudly at the table, ie.

    Charisma isn't personality - everyone has personality. It's 'force of personality' - the ability to assert your personality on others. Hence, it may alter the perception of others towards you (particularly first impressions). It's like how Int relates to knowledge and learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    I know what my IQ is. I'm also pretty sure I have a Wis of about 8. Your system would require me to have 23 Int. I'm not entirely sure how I manage that, as a human.
    There are people with IQ above 140 in real life. Technically, this is genius level intelligence. My system doesn't cover that because being a genius is abnormal - and semi-super natural, imo.

    Just like enrolling in special ed, you'd need the appropriate trait to be a genius through Int alone.

    Note that there's also people in real life who can pull trucks with the hair of their beards and petite women who can hurl a 200 pound man over a high wall when hopped on aderenaline. In D&D, while this is best represented as 'heroic surge' or action points, it's safe to assume that remarkable passive things such as 'genius' through Int alone, require optimization. Also, geniuses are supposed to be less common then a 3d6 die roll - something like 1 in 1000 according to Wiki.
    Last edited by imp_fireball; 2010-05-01 at 12:37 PM.

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