[3.5] Combat Debuffing

[tuesdayscoming]

I'm trying to build a character right now, someone who cripples their opponents' ability to function in combat. I've come up with a few ideas as to how to pull it off, but since I'm relatively new to 3.5 (played ADND back in the day) I'm sure I've missed a lot of great stuff.

Here's what I've got so far:

* Hexblade 4 for Arcane Resistance, Mettle, Hexblade's Curse, and Dark Companion (familiar variant from PH2, IIRC)
* Paladin of Tyranny 3 (SRD) for Divine Grace and Aura of Despair
* Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige feats from ToM (Gets you an Aura of Sadness)
*Frightful Presence (Drc)
*Imperious Command (DotUnd) combined with the Fearsome armor property from the same book

The gist of it is that you get phenomenal saves, a total debuff potential of -8 to saves, -4 to attack rolls and skill checks, and -2 to AC, ability checks and damage Rolls, and a couple of other nifty tricks involving fear. Better yet, all of the debuff effects are passive (save the Hexblade's Curse), and it's accomplishable by level 7.

Have any ideas in keeping with this theme? I'd be interested in seeing whatever you've got, even if it doesn't fit in with this character's "darkness."

[Amphetryon]

I love combat debuffers.

If you have access to Tome of Battle, you can use Martial Study to get some maneuvers in the Shadow Hand school. Drain Vitality as a 2nd level strike, and Strength Draining Strike, as a 3rd level, are both thematically appropriate. You may need to burn more feats than is feasible for this to be efficient, though, so see if you can get them as Martial Scripts and use the skill Martial Lore.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hexblade is extremely weak, it was a great idea but very poorly executed. There are some fixes for it published online, but I don't know where offhand.

Check out the feat Dreadful Wrath in Player's Guide to Faerun. It's like Frightful Presence but it can be taken at 1st level and there's no HD limit on what it can affect.

Breath attacks, such as from Dragonfire Adept in Dragon Magic or Dragon Shaman in PH2, are great for debuffing opponents when combined with the feat Entangling Exhalation in Races of the Dragon. You could also gain a breath attack via the Dragonborn of Bahamut template, also in Races of the Dragon, but it's strictly good-aligned.

In Complete Scoundrel there are skill tricks, which cost a few skill points and grant additional uses for certain skills. Specifically, there's Never Outnumbered, which allows an Intimidate check to demoralize every opponent within ten feet, though only once per encounter. It works well with Imperious Command, especially if the opponents are already shaken.

Tanglefoot Bags are useful, maybe pick up Obtain Familiar from Complete Arcane with Improved Familiar in the DMG to get an Imp or Quasit who can throw them around for you. An Imp gets Suggestion as a spell-like ability, which can be extremely useful in almost any situation. You could even use Dragonfire Adept to meet the caster level requirement for Obtain Familiar.

If you plan on taking Fighter levels, the Zhentarim Soldier substitution levels will allow you to use Intimidate to demoralize as a swift action, so you can demoralize someone and still be able to full attack or charge. Fighter levels aren't great, but it works well with a chain tripper build.

If you're going to focus on the Intimidate skill, you can visit the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get the feat Menacing Demeanor for free, also detailed in Races of Destiny, or if staring higher than 1st level write it into your character's backstory and get the feat for 3,000 gp. The Half-Orc Paragon class from UA gets an extra +4 Intimidate at the 1st level, and isn't a bad choice for a combat-focused build.

[Person_Man]

Doomspeak feat. Burn a Bardic music use to impose a -10 penalty on your enemy for 1 round (Save negates). It's a Standard, Supernatural action, so you need to coordinate with your party members to get good use out of it. But it's worth it.

There are tons of Fear related class features - Warchanter, Knight, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, etc.

Binder actually has numerous debuffs and Save or Lose effects - and in my opinion that's what he's best at. He's also playable at every level, he has a few great PrC options, and multi-classes well at low to mid levels. Plus all his abilities are Supernatural. I'm working on a "Trapper Keeper Binder" build right now actually, and will probably post it in the next week.

You should also take a close look at Daze effects. Shield Slam, Anvil of Thunder, Boomerang Daze, Ragewild Fighter, Killoren Smite, Devoted Inquisitor build, Cabinet Trickster, Dire Flail Smash, Ironsoul Forgemaster, Arcane Focus soulmeld, Incarnum Blast invocation, Dahlver-Nar vestige, Scion of Dantalion, Dazing Strike maneuver, a few magic items.

The net, razor net, and lasso all entangle your enemy and are available at level 1. Don't even bother with proficiency, because they're touch attacks.

Also, be mindful that many debuffs (including all Fear effects) are Mind Effecting and/or magical, and thus do not effect certain enemies.

[tuesdayscoming]

As for the ToB stuff, one of my party members is planning on going Shadow Hand Swordsage, so I think I'm going to stay away from that stuff to avoid stepping on his toes.

I had looked at Never Outnumbered, but it was before I had seen Imperious Command. Looking back, that's a fantastic combo.

Dreadful Wrath is neat, but I think I'll stick with Frightful Presence (doesn't require a full attack to get the effect).

I REALLY like the idea of an Imp as an Imp. Familiar, but the problem is the required 'Level 7 Arcane Spell Casting Class'. Any ideas as to how I can get around this?

Person_Man, you make a great point in that fear isn't universally useful. Undead come along and this guy's not looking so hot anymore. On that note, any ideas as to how to counter this?

Love the ideas so far, guys, keep 'em coming!

[edit] I'll take a look at the daze effects Person_Man listed when I've got my books in front of me.

[gdiddy]

Bestow Curse Is my all-purpose debuffer. Put it in a wand chamber on your weapon of choice. Bam. Fairly high Will save or I have just stolen half of a person's life. Or now they are missing 6 Con. Or they take -4 to every roll.

The best part is that it stacks. So you can do all three to a single target. Bestow Curse also can change genders, both blind and deafen a target, and about 10 other official uses in BoVD. Unofficial uses are a matter of creativity.

[tuesdayscoming]

Where are the rules for wand chambers?

[gdiddy]

Dungeonscape.

[Zaq]

There's a feat in Sandstorm (I think it's called Sand Dancer) that lets you force a save against Blindness whenever you tumble and hit a target, as long as the area's dusty enough. It's not amazing on its own (even with a Bottle of Endless Sand or something similar to stack the deck), but if you're moving and attacking already, it's just one more save for them to fail.

Netherese Battle Curse (Lost Empires of Faerun) is like Arcane Strike, only instead of adding damage, it smacks the target with a batch of penalties (which unfortunately don't actually get worse if you burn higher-level spells, but a penalty is a penalty). It's pretty much made for Hexblades, if you actually have spells to burn.

There's a feat in PHB2, the name of which escapes me at the moment (Brutal Strike, maybe?), which allows you to force a save against Sickened whenever you power attack with a bludgeoning weapon. Again, not phenomenal on its own, but it can be used at the same time as everything else I'm mentioning, along with Dreadful Wrath. Make 'em roll enough saves, and they'll fail at least a COUPLE.

[gdiddy]

That's why I sometimes put Snap Kick and Touch of Golden Ice on fighter builds. Consequently, that Dragon that rolled a 1 had no idea what hit him.

[Human Paragon 3]

Corrupt Avenger from Heroes of Horror gets decent access to debuff spells as well as some decent fear effects. As far as I know he's the only class in the game that gets a special form of fear that bestows -4 instead of -2.

I would also second frightful presence.

Once your enemy's saves are in the toilet, consider killing them! Ghost faced killer packs a nice save or die that fits in well with the rest of your build.

[RagnaroksChosen]

i wish there was a way to get paladin of tyranys aura with out having to be evil.

though i guess the nature of debuffing lends it self to being evil.

[Thurbane]

If your build has high CHA (which it sounds like it might), I'd recommend the Stunning Surge weapon enhancement from MIC. If you are going to be inflicting a hefty penalty on enemy saves by your proximity, you'd have a decent chance of stunning them. Also, unlike most weapon enhancements, it scales (somewhat) with your character. Not bad at the cost of a +1 enhancement.

[Temotei]

If you want a hexblade, maybe you can convince your DM to allow the hexblade improvements in the homebrew forum. I know there's a whole thread for hexblades...I'll look for it. Here. There's also the debaser in my homebrew, if you're interested.

Otherwise, follow what the others have to say.

[FishAreWet]

Unseelie Fey from Dragon Compendium. Cha penalty to all within 5ft.

[Keld Denar]

If your build has high CHA (which it sounds like it might), I'd recommend the Stunning Surge weapon enhancement from MIC. If you are going to be inflicting a hefty penalty on enemy saves by your proximity, you'd have a decent chance of stunning them. Also, unlike most weapon enhancements, it scales (somewhat) with your character. Not bad at the cost of a +1 enhancement.

Stunning Surge is a +1 equiv with a static save. Sudden Stunning in the DMGII only costs +2000g, DC scales with level, stun lasts for 1d4+1 rounds, and is Ref based, which is the one save that often goes down as CR goes up.

[Doc Roc]

Boomerang. Daze.

[Thurbane]

Stunning Surge is a +1 equiv with a static save. Sudden Stunning in the DMGII only costs +2000g, DC scales with level, stun lasts for 1d4+1 rounds, and is Ref based, which is the one save that often goes down as CR goes up.

Stunning Surge isn't a static save, it's 10 + 1/2 HD + CHA mod. But yes, Sudden Stunning is superior in every way...some might say too good for a flat 2000gp.

It was never called out officially, but there is a fairly common assumption that Stunning Surge was the MIC updated version of Sudden Stunning, toned down to a more reasonable level (seriously, an enemy that fails is stunned for 2-5 rounds. That's basically save or die, considering how long the average battle lasts!). Similar to the nerf stick that MIC took to the Ring of Spell Battle and a few others.

[Doc Roc]

The nerf stick they took to ring of spellbattle was more like a nerf baton, or possibly a nerf twig.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dreadful Wrath is activated whenever you charge, full attack, or cast a spell which directly affects an opponent, so it's more likely to be on than Frightful Presence, which only triggers on an attack or charge. Plus nearly every monster has quite a few more HD than its CR, so probably at least half of your opponents will be outright immune to your Frightful Presence feat.

Frightful Presence would need to be taken in your 6th level feat spot, but Imperious Command would also need to be taken in your 6th level feat spot. Those are feats which you want to have as early as possible, but if you take both one will be delayed until 9th level. By taking Dreadful Wrath you can get Imperious Command at 6th and be much better off in the earlier levels.

[Person_Man]

There's a feat in Sandstorm (I think it's called Sand Dancer) that lets you force a save against Blindness whenever you tumble and hit a target, as long as the area's dusty enough. It's not amazing on its own (even with a Bottle of Endless Sand or something similar to stack the deck), but if you're moving and attacking already, it's just one more save for them to fail.

Sand Dancer is indeed a good feat. The trick is that you need to move at least 10 ft to activate it - so you either need Pounce or worthwhile Standard Action attacks (Tome of Battle Strikes, Binder, etc).

There's also the Sand Snare feat, which forces an enemy Tripped in an area of sand/loose earth/etc to spend a Full Round Action followed by a Move action to stand up. No Save. But since the enemy needs to be standing in sand, you'll need to spend a round attacking him with your Bottle of Sand, or you'll need an ally who's willing to cast (or UMD) Transmute Stone to Sand or Black Sand.

And while we're on the subject of obscure debuffs, if you get immunity to negative levels (Binder, Incarnate, Deadgrim, getting the undead type yourself) you can use a Lifedrinker weapon to bestow negative levels on your enemy. Death Devotion (Complete Champion) also bestows negative levels, but has a cap on how many you can give.

I REALLY like the idea of an Imp as an Imp. Familiar, but the problem is the required 'Level 7 Arcane Spell Casting Class'. Any ideas as to how I can get around this?

If you're playing at ECL 16 or lower, you can find a PrC with it's own arcane spell list. Knight of the Weave, Suel Arcanamach, Chameleon, etc. Something like Binder 1/Hexblade 4/PrC X. Or just play an arcane base class that is worth continuing on it's own - Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Spelltheif, etc. There are TONS of debuff spells out there.

Person_Man, you make a great point in that fear isn't universally useful. Undead come along and this guy's not looking so hot anymore. On that note, any ideas as to how to counter this?

A caster/binder/psionic/meldshaping build can just choose different spells/abilities. Others can use wands (especially Cha based classes). And you noticed, most (though not all) Daze effects work against everything. Boomerang Daze or Shield Slam are the easiest to get and trigger.

Honestly though, if you know you're playing in a high level campaign, I would just avoid spending feats on Fear abilities. Too many things are immune.

[AdamSmasher]

There is also a bard variant you might want to look in to that essentially turn your normal bardic music bonuses on your party in to penalties against your enemies. Combine that with some of the ways to beef up bard songs and you've added another -4 (or more) to attack and damage and saves versus certain things for your enemies with minimal investment. You also get a couple other debuffs if you keep going in the class.

It's here, on page 16 (Harbinger): http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD...asses-Base.pdf


As for the imp thing, if you go three levels of Harbinger (Bard) then you get the ability to encourage failure in your opponents. Take Practiced Spellcaster for +4 CL and you'll qualify for the Imp familiar. You can add doomspeak like that one guy said, too, for use with your bardic musics.

And, if you do go bard, I would suggest dropping hexblade (not THAT great) and going pure bard/paladin. See if you can get your DM to let you homebrew a feat that lets your bard and paladin levels stack for the purpose of Lay on Hands and Bardic Music. That way, you've got three more music uses, better bonuses, and your evil lay on hands becomes a nasty attack (provided you've got high charisma).