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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Il_Vec's Avatar

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    Default Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    So, I'm making a new character, and I wanted to make one good at disabling Casters. I've been thinking down to two ideas: Hitting them so hard so fast that they won't know what happened, or playing a Caster myself.

    If you visited the "melee build for killing casters" thread, you might know that it will be a level 10 character, 28 point-buy, no LA beyond +1, no RHD, no psionics, no ToB, no web material, no dragon magazine, no Complete Champion.

    My first idea was going Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus/Spellthief/Unseen Seer for a final build, or Beg/Wiz/UM/ArchMage. But I think Archmage's feat tax might be too high.

    Was thinking human, so I'd have 6 feats (counting the bonus feat from UltMag 5): Practiced Spellcaster, Empower Spell, Silent Spell, Split Ray, Arcane Disciple (War or Competition, pending on DM), Quicken Spell.

    Should I take any reserve feats from Comp Mage? Is there any metamagic feat/shenanigans I'm missing?
    Do you guys have any suggestions, ideas?
    Last edited by Il_Vec; 2010-04-28 at 01:06 PM.
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    Doc Roc's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Il_Vec View Post
    So, I'm making a new character, and I wanted to make one good at disabling Casters. I've been thinking down to two ideas: Hitting them so hard so fast that they won't know what happened, or playing a Caster myself.

    If you visited the "melee build for killing casters" thread, you might know that it will be a level 10 character, 28 point-buy, no LA beyond +1, no RHD, no psionics, no ToB, no web material, no dragon magazine, no Complete Champion.

    My first idea was going Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus/Spellthief/Unseen Seer for a final build, or Beg/Wiz/UM/ArchMage. But I think Archmage's feat tax might be too high.

    Was thinking human, so I'd have 6 feats (counting the bonus feat from UltMag 5): Practiced Spellcaster, Empower Spell, Silent Spell, Split Ray, Arcane Disciple (War or Competition, pending on DM), Quicken Spell.

    Do you guys have any suggestions, ideas? Should I take any reserve feats from Comp Mage? Is there any metamagic feat/shenanigans I'm missing?
    Do you guys have any suggestions, ideas?
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    Spellthief probably doesn't do what you want it to, and even if it did, your GM probably would not allow it.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Wait, so now you're going to be a caster yourself? And you want to smush the wizards? Why are you making things so complicated with UM?

    I'd be a druid.
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    Troll in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    I played a warmage/abjurer/ultimate magus who pretty much made a mockery out of everything he fought, including enemy spell casters.

    At high enough level, heavily metamagic'd damage spells are surprisingly effective, especially against low hp targets like casters. Hit'em hard with maximized or twinned orb spells, with quickened True Strike if needed. Ultimate Magus is all about metamagic to burn, and they can pull off crap like that even by level 10. I'd highly recommend warmage over beguiler if you're going anti-caster, as casters will likely take the time to Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement themselves. Even with energy resistance, there's little they can do against orbs of force.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    ... no LA beyond +1, no RHD, no psionics, no ToB, no web material, no dragon magazine, no Complete Champion
    Fox Only! Final Destination!

    Could not help myself...

    Again... I know you want to burn trough spells from one side to buff the other side. But there is not something a little more simple to invest on?
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    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Check here for a guide.

    Hope this helps.
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    Orc in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    If the game is an optimized one, make one of the classes a fast-progression one. For example :
    Wizard 4 / PrC 5 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Ultimate Magus 8
    You delay your Wizard casting by two levels, but in return you get the super-awesome Song of Power and the metamagic Augmented Casting of Ultimate Magus.
    Augmented Casting is incredibly great. Combine it with other forms of metamagic reduction and you can routinely cast at least two spells every round, all of them improved in some way. Multiple actions are your most precious currency.
    If you can use Eberron material, Changeling Recaster is awesome in a similar way - you get class abilities similar to Sudden Quicken and Sudden Maximize.
    Use Repeating Quickeend True Strike for your ranged touch attacks and you will rarely miss.
    Note on Reserve Feats : Some of them require a standard action, which is better spent on a more powerful spell. Some of them can be replicated with items, which are much cheaper than feats.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by nargbop View Post
    If the game is an optimized one, make one of the classes a fast-progression one. For example :
    Wizard 4 / PrC 5 / Virtuoso 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / Ultimate Magus 8
    You delay your Wizard casting by two levels, but in return you get the super-awesome Song of Power and the metamagic Augmented Casting of Ultimate Magus.
    Augmented Casting is incredibly great. Combine it with other forms of metamagic reduction and you can routinely cast at least two spells every round, all of them improved in some way. Multiple actions are your most precious currency.
    If you can use Eberron material, Changeling Recaster is awesome in a similar way - you get class abilities similar to Sudden Quicken and Sudden Maximize.
    Use Repeating Quickeend True Strike for your ranged touch attacks and you will rarely miss.
    Note on Reserve Feats : Some of them require a standard action, which is better spent on a more powerful spell. Some of them can be replicated with items, which are much cheaper than feats.
    Honestly, optimized Ultimate Magus is Wizard 5/Wizard PrC 2/Nar Demonbinder 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Wizard PrC 2. As Nar Demonbinder casting is always Wizard+Demonbinder level, it's always ahead and thus all the level-ups go to Wizard and you get enough casting from UM to finish Demonbinder.

    As for why Wizard 5, you need Spontaneous Divination for strict qualification as Demonbinder never gets level 1 spells, but Wizard can cast spontaneously from level 1 slots thus qualifying you and then you just advance Demonbinder with the spontaneous side.
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    I like the Nar Demonbinder build personally, but I'll play devil's advocate and point out that using wizard to qualify with spontaneous divinations is not the same as playing a spontaneous caster. You're a prepared caster who can spontaneously cast some of his spells, just like a druid or cleric. Sure, you're only doing it so you can use the spontaneous caster, but it's still against RAI and probably RAW as well.

    As for builds, I'll switch positions and also recommend the nar demonbinder if allowed, and if not, I'd go with the beguiler/wiz build without spellthief.

    If the campaign stopped at 12th level, then a fun one might be Diviner 5/Trapsmith 1/UM 6, getting trap-finding through the thieves' gloves in MoI. Not optimized, but probably pretty fun as the party "rogue." Could follow with unseen seer I suppose.

    Keep in mind that Augmented Casting only words on spells with no metamagic on them beforehand (see the 3rd paragraph), so even if you have 5 metamagic feats, only 1 will apply to any given spell that you want to augment, maybe 2 with a metamagic rod. It's not quite as insane as an artificer with a wand and charges to burn :P
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    I like the Nar Demonbinder build personally, but I'll play devil's advocate and point out that using wizard to qualify with spontaneous divinations is not the same as playing a spontaneous caster. You're a prepared caster who can spontaneously cast some of his spells, just like a druid or cleric. Sure, you're only doing it so you can use the spontaneous caster, but it's still against RAI and probably RAW as well.
    Feel free, but UM's requirements have you there. It only requires the ability to spontaneously cast level 1 spells, which Spont. Div gives you; you don't need any actual spontaneous caster classes. Hell, Magical Training + Sanctum Spell could do it. Sure, you can't advance Wizard-casting with the spontaneous side of UM, but that's where Nar Demonbinder comes in.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    You can't get Spontaneous Divination without using Complete Champion.
    • Chameleon Base Class [3.5]/[PF]: A versatile, morphic class that mimics one basic party role (warrior, caster, sneak, etc) at a time. If you find yourself getting bored of any class you play too long, the Chameleon is for you!
    • Warlock Power Sources [3.5]: Making Hellfire Warlock part of the base class and providing other similar options for Warlocks whose powers don't come from devils.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by FMArthur View Post
    You can't get Spontaneous Divination without using Complete Champion.
    True; you can get Common Sense Qualification for UM though; Spont. Div is just a convenient and useful RAW means to sidestep that particular obstacle.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    I'm going Beguiler 1/Specialist 3/Master Specialist 1/Ultimate Magus 5, for now... I'm not sure, I was thinking Transmuter or Conjurer, leaning towards Transmuter. I know I'll get Spell Focus for both, as pre-requisites for ArchMage.
    Inner fear is your only enemy.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Consider Versatile Spellcaster from RotD. You qualify with Beguiler 1, but the feat appears to say you can use it with your Wiz casting, or even sac two first level Beguiler spells to cast a second level Wizard spell, etc.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Playing an Illumian with the Krau sigil means you can advance wizard casting on every level up. That wizard spell level (plus better CL on both sides) is more important than a feat, even if you're planning on archmage. But if you can swing the Nar Demonbinder I'd go that route.
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    Optimystik's Avatar

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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fawsto View Post
    Fox Only! Final Destination!

    Could not help myself...
    You got a lol out of me at least

    Anyhow, my personal favorite and non-cheesy UM build is the Wiz/Beguiler one - Int synergy, and you can go Specialist on the wizard side with no problems (dropping Illusion and Enchantment) to be a specialist with almost no reduction in schools; a true "ultimate magus."

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    As GoodbyeSoberDay said, go Illumian with the Krau sigil so UM gives 10/10 to Wizard with Practiced Spellcaster: Beguiler. Illumian is a Humanoid (Human), so take Able Learner to keep up your ranks in those nice Beguiler skills, namely Spot, Listen, Hide, and Move Silently. Grab Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon, it allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, so you can spend Beguiler spell slots to cast any Wizard spell you've made the Spellcraft check to understand. Take flaws if you can, from UA, but also available from the SRD.

    Beguiler gets Silence, and shortbow proficiency. Get some +1 Spell Storing Arrows if you can, put (Rod of) Maximized Shivering Touch into them, and anything you shoot will take 18 Dex damage. You can ready an action to cast silence near an enemy caster if they start casting a spell with a verbal component, there's no saving throw and their spell will be lost. I'd also pick up the feat Darkstalker from Lords of Madness, so you can sneak up on someone despite any extraordinary senses. Consider specializing in Conjuration to get the Abrupt Jaunt ACF from PH2. Get Extraordinary Spell Aim from Complete Adventurer, and cast an ESM AMF to completely disrupt an enemy caster.

    Finish out the build with four levels of Incantatrix, from PGtF. Use Metamagic Effect to put Persistent Spell on your buffs, so even your higher level spells can be made Persistent. I'd probably go Beguiler 1/ Wizard 4/ UM 10/ Incantatrix 4/ Wizard 1, then take epic UM or finish out Incantatrix after 20. Say you visited the Otyugh Hole, detailed in Complete Scoundrel, to get Iron Will for 3,000 gp instead of wasting a feat on it, since it's required for Incantatrix. Be sure to have the Heart of- line of spells from Complete Mage active at all times.
    Last edited by Biffoniacus_Furiou; 2010-04-29 at 04:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Tips for an Ultimate Magus? [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post

    [snip]

    I'm backing this plan. God Bless you, Biff.
    We could apply MORE POWER but really, you don't need it in any way.
    Last edited by Test Of Spite; 2010-04-29 at 04:49 PM.
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