I'm epic... so why do I feel so useless? (Cleric, 3.5)

[shimmercat]

Long post ahead, sorry! Decided to make this its own thread, rather than just editing my rather long Native Outsider thread.

I need help. I've been playing this character for 16 levels now, over a year and a half RL time. We just reached 21st level, and so I've officially got my first epic character. I should be excited. I'm really really not. I think it's because the character is pretty useless and boring mechanics wise.


The game:

D&D 3.5. RP-driven. Custom world with a lot of custom rules -- of the major campaign settings, the world is closest in flavor to Eberron, but it really is a custom world. We've got a LOT of homebrew involving the gods and how divine stuff works. Nautical campaign, with five players (barbarian/fighter, rogue/ranger, paladin, summony air druid, and me, the cleric). We are not optimized, and are generally probably not going to go with stuff that seems overpowered. (It's an RP-driven game, after all.) The game is pretty casual and laid back -- we aren't rules nazis at all.


The character (Dieder):

Spoiler

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By me!

Human male, CG
Rogue 1, Clecic 10, Contemplative 10
God: Bahamut (similar to but not quite the same as the typical Bahamut)
Domains: Travel, Luck, Protection, Good
Ability scores (w/o magic items, w/ tomes): STR 14, DEX 18, CON 13, INT 20, WIS 24, CHA 22
Relevant Feats: Spontaneous Domain Caster (Travel & Luck), Leadership, Dragon Prophesier, Prophesy's Shepard, Epic Leadership (21st level feat)
Weapon (VERY rarely used because I suck with it): Pistol

Playstyle:

Dieder is the party face. I'm really happy with him personality-wise and out of battle; he's a rich character with a lot of interesting stuff going on, and he's fun to play. He is the Captain of a ship, and the crew is covered by his Leadership feat. He's completely Good (although not afraid to lie and swindle), and is willing to do almost anything for his crew. He strongly prefers to not kill humans and humanoids, but he'll kill monsters, and he'll let the other party members kill humanoids. He is strongly devoted to his god, although I can see him having a crisis of faith soon, given the direction plot events have gone. I am planning on him starting to raise an army.

Out of battle mechanics-wise, Dieder is the utility caster. He's in charge of getting people from place to place -- he teleports, after all. We have a homebrew spell "Teleport Ship" as his 9th level spell for Travel domain. My FAVORITE spell is Discern Location. We spend a lot of time trying to find people -- after all, we have a shipful of NPCs we care about and they are constantly getting into trouble. His best skills include Bluff, Diplomacy, Know: Religion, Know: Geography, Prof: Sailor, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft.

In battle (THIS IS WHERE THE ISSUES LIE), Dieder's basically a flying healbot. I have a hard time hitting things with spells -- my caster level/DCs just don't seem to be good enough (despite being CL 20 and having a Wis mod of +10). Plus, he prefers to not kill humanoids himself. This was a character growth point and I'd prefer to not screw too much with it. He WILL kill monsters, undead, dragons, everything else, and humanoids that he really really hates. In difficult/plot battles, I have a rough time keeping up with all the healing that needs to be done (although the Prophesy's Shepard helped a lot with that). In easy battles, I often skip my turns because I have nothing to do.

The party:

Fighter/Barbarian: Melee. Hits once a round, and hits hard.
Paladin: Melee. Uses an oversized sword, lots of attacks and Smite Evils.
Ranger/Rogue: Melee, two weapon fighter. Also uses a lot of wands (he kinda stands in for a wizard for us).
Druid: Air Elemental Savant, wants to be a wizard, SUMMONS and flash-bangs.

I'd prefer not to summon or melee fight because we kinda have both of those covered.

Spoiler

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Also by me. From left: Simon (Ranger/Rogue), Grigoriy (Paladin, duh!), Murata (Air Druid), Dieder (Cleric), and Puku (Barbarian/Fighter)

The problem:

Dieder has been boring in battle the entire game (yes, all 19 months of it). I'm a fairly experienced player but I really suck at the mechanics aspect of the game, and I was honestly just willing to deal with him being boring in battle, because he was a lot of fun out of battle. However, recently, the other characters have overtaken him in almost all ways. I'm starting to feel useless, except for my Leadership feat, the fact that I can Teleport, and the massive healing I can deliver in battle. I'm starting to feel like Dieder is "The Ride," with some healing thrown in.

I don't mind being upstaged in some ways, but I feel like at this point, I'm completely upstaged in all ways, including stuff that made the character unique and special at lower levels (like his ability to fly). I have to cast a spell (using an action), and then get Fly 60ft, good manueverability. The druid can fly automatically, with 100ft and perfect maneuverability. This is happening in other areas as well. (And in case the druid's player finds this, I'm not holding this against you! This is an example of one of LOTS of things that's happening, and it's my fault, not yours!)

I found the capstone of Contemplative to be immensely unsatisfying, and I think it's because I was hoping it would give Dieder some Oomph. It gave him... basically nothing useful at all. XD

And I really don't know what to do with him epic. I think I need to change direction, but I'm not sure how. (I am required to take the Demigod epic destiny, although I can take the feats at any time from level 21 to 30, as long as I'm done by 30. The feats have been tweaked some to better fit the world. The whole party is taking an epic destiny.) I'm not looking for the most POWERFUL things to do, I'm looking for something that would be fun and special.

Some MINOR retconning/retraining may be acceptable with the DM, so if you see something, feel free to suggest it. But I'd prefer to not be redoing the whole character. I've got reasons for the Rogue dip (RP + skills).

I've shifted a lot in my vision of the character -- I'm not sure if he's really a full caster anymore, despite having the levels. I have no idea what he IS, though.

Flavor-wise, dragon stuff is a good choice as he's got a dragon god (despite being completely human -- he started worshiping the god as "The Wandering Star" and learned later than he was actually worshiping Bahamut). I also like angel-y things for this character. Luck is a big theme for him as well.

Do people have any suggestions?


And thank you for reading all of this, if you did. XD I wanted to give enough info, and... well, when you've been playing the character for as long as I've been playing Dieder... XD I hope I gave all the info that's needed, without going into too much detail...

[Lin Bayaseda]

Go the Summoning path. Remember, no matter how useless you are, you can always summong monsters who aren't.

[Starbuck_II]

Epic Spellcasting instead of Epic leadership?

You can grant yourself all day flying if you desire.
If you need help crafting the spell's DC, let us know.

[shimmercat]

The druid is a summoner, and I'd REALLY prefer to not make rounds take any longer than they already do, so I'd prefer to not be summoning things.

Epic Leadership is unfortunately non-negotiable. It means my crew can level up (which they SORELY need) and it means I can start my army.

I'm planning on taking Epic Spellcasting at 24th level, although I'm not terribly excited about it, either. The DM and the druid are all SUPER INTO making epic spells, and I'm pretty "eh" about it.

[Jack_Simth]

If you're not doing so good in battle as a Cleric, it's because you're not (ab)using the right spells.

You don't want to heal-bot? Don't heal-bot. You can:

If you can't hit, Buff others: Magic Vestments and Greater Magic Weapon gives you +5 for your weapons and armor are negligible cost - and at this level, you can pretty much do the entire party. Doesn't stack with an inherent enchantment in the weapon/armor, but does mean you can use those +'s on other things. Oh yes, and the Cleric gets a *very nice* listing of buff spells, especially if you browse Spell Compendium (Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, Holy Aura, and Elation are all very useful group-buff spells - handy for when you've got those gobs of followers using bows!).

If you can't hit, spend a round buffing, and now you can: A few simple spells will do you; there's the core Trifeca: Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might. Quicken Divine Favor and Divine Power, cast Righteous Might normally. First round of battle? Quickened Divine Power, Righteous Might. Second round of battle? Quickened Divine Favor, Charge. You get: +1 Size Category, +10 Strength, full BAB (character level - you've got BAB of +21, including the extra attacks... and the way it's worded, your Epic Attack Bonus stacks fully with that...) +3 Luck to attack and damage, and some defense. You should be able to hit things, now. Fairly hard, too (especially if you arrange to get Power Attack and a two-handed weapon).

If you can't hit, Summon something that can: You have all the Summoning spells as a Cleric. Familiarize yourself with them, and use them. Augment Summoning helps, but isn't required. Be warned: Most summons are little more than speed-bumps at this level, so focus on multiple summonings for flanking aid-another buddies for the party.

There's other things you can do. What all do you want to do?

[Doc Roc]

I has idea:

Retrain as an ideal cleric:
Cloistered Cleric 5/Malconvoker 9/ Contemplative 6/Malconvoker 1(will need to get GM to brew up an epic progression, since malconvoker is a 9 level PrC)/Void Disciple 1

Theme:
I'mma charmin' devil!
I am boss!

Gets:
3 free domains, including Knowledge.
Recommend:
Time domain

Hugely powerful summons. Literally mind-crushing.
Sense Void, which will find anything within 1000 miles. Period. It's (su), non-divination, and once per day.
Epic spellcasting.

[Krazddndfreek]

DMM Persist + any buff.

[Mongoose87]

I'm planning on taking Epic Spellcasting at 24th level, although I'm not terribly excited about it, either. The DM and the druid are all SUPER INTO making epic spells, and I'm pretty "eh" about it.

Take it ASAP. If you try hard enough, you can do most anything with Epic Spells.

[Doc Roc]

Take it ASAP. If you try hard enough, you can do most anything with Epic Spells.

If they're into it, then the game is effectively a smoldering heap if the druid is remotely decent at it.

[shimmercat]

Edited in that I'm not interested in summoning (which I should have said in the first place, sorry!)

I am taking Epic Spellcasting as soon as possible. I had to take Epic Leadership first! Really, I did!

Doc Roc: Yeah, the druid is good at it. XD The DM is pretty strict about spells, though, and we ARE NOT OPTIMIZERS. Plus, she's got plot spells (Create Shifter from Human! 8D) to make before she can start making flash-bang and summoning spells. These things help.... a little.

[Starbuck_II]

To be fair, Epic spells are horrid at blasting spells.
You'd be better off casting non-epic for blasting (not that blasting is great, but still).

[Doc Roc]

Edited in that I'm not interested in summoning (which I should have said in the first place, sorry!)

I am taking Epic Spellcasting as soon as possible. I had to take Epic Leadership first! Really, I did!

:(

Then how do you feel about BUFFS?

[shimmercat]

I find buffs kinda tedious, honestly. XD If I had a really good setup, it may be worth it but... Yes, I know that they are the classic way to break a cleric.

The goal here is not to make my character the MOST POWERFUL EVER. The goal is to make him FUN IN BATTLE (and hopefully keep the same flavor he's always had). These things are not necessarily equivalent. XD

[randomhero00]

I'm not sure what you're asking... You want more combat power but don't want to do/take any of the things that would help you most (summoning, epic casting). You can't really retrain (retraining into a DMM persist cleric would be huge, almost all your feats.) So what kind of advice are you looking for?

[Prodan]

I find buffs kinda tedious, honestly. XD If I had a really good setup, it may be worth it but... Yes, I know that they are the classic way to break a cleric.

The goal here is not to make my character the MOST POWERFUL EVER. The goal is to make him FUN IN BATTLE (and hopefully keep the same flavor he's always had). These things are not necessarily equivalent. XD

Observation: Your request is very vague.
Hypothesis: You are not having fun because you do not know what you want to do with your character in combat.

[Doc Roc]

Just persist shapechange, and live your life as a huge monstrosity.

Heck, if you opt to be a solar or similar, you're gonna get two sets of 9th level clerical casting. Have fun.

[shimmercat]

I shot down summoning because we ALREADY have hour-long rounds, and I really don't want to be adding to the length more than necessary.

And I haven't shot down Epic Spellcasting... I just can't retcon/retrain it into my 21st level feat slot because of Epic Leadership. I am taking Epic Spellcasting at 24th level, which is the soonest I can.

Honestly, I LIKE being a utility caster and healer. I just have NO CLUE what to do in battle. I find it hard to believe that Epic Spellcasting and summoning are my only options for being useful.

A large part of the problem with buffing is that the group I'm in can't handle adding numbers on the fly. So... if I tell them that I'm casting a spell that gives them +2 to hit, they spend the next 5 rounds forgetting to add in the +2, even when reminded. I'm serious. Simplification is very important with this group.

So I could buff myself, but with a gun as my weapon and 3 melee fighters already, I'm not sure how that would help.

I'm really not TRYING to be difficult.

Observation: Your request is very vague.
Hypothesis: You are not having fun because you do not know what you want to do with your character in combat.

Yup. Looking for unconventional suggestions.

[Doc Roc]

That's reasonable. But the fact of the matter is that my experience has been that epic is basically, Spreadsheets: The Game, even when it tries hard not to be. I'm not sure you have a lot of good options that will actually be fun.

[shimmercat]

I have three spreadsheets for this character already. XD The druid and the DM have lots and lots of spreadsheets too. Still working on getting the melee fighters to make some. I think it's a lost cause at this point.

I've never played in an epic game before... is it really that bad? ._. We love these characters too much at this point, and the DM has lots of epic plotlines for us, but if the battles are going to all be as terribly tedious as the majority of battles recently have been, we may have a problem.

[Lycanthromancer]

Hold up a sign on a buffed person's turn, which says, "+10 AC, +20 damage per hit," and I'm sure they'll remember.

[Prodan]

Yup. Looking for unconventional suggestions.

Suggestions: Control Water, Miracle, Fire Storm, Earthquake, Blade Barrier...

[lsfreak]

A large part of the problem with buffing is that the group I'm in can't handle adding numbers on the fly. So... if I tell them that I'm casting a spell that gives them +2 to hit, they spend the next 5 rounds forgetting to add in the +2, even when reminded. I'm serious. Simplification is very important with this group.

Buy a whiteboard. Write down everyone's names. Make a list of what pluses people get from you. Stick it in the middle of the table, and beat them over the head when they forget to add it in. They'll learn quickly.

[Doc Roc]

My suggestion is to just never go epic. Level 20 is bad, but there's a magical stack of fail waiting for you across the 21 threshold. Honestly, talk to your GM about freezing the creation of new epic spells, and if possible, just treat the game like it doesn't go epic at 21.

[shimmercat]

Lycanthromancer: that is hilarious and actually a good idea. XD NOW TO GET THEM TO ADD THE NUMBERS TOGETHER RATHER THAN JUST SHOUT "48+95+21!" AT THE DM. (What's really funny is that the accountant in the group is the worst offender.)

lsfreak: We've got a whiteboard. I don't think we could possibly play without it. XD

Doc Roc: Yikes. I may talk to him about possibly restricting epic spells to plot-relevant-only, but he loves them so much I doubt we'd even get that.

Prodan: I'm still getting the feel for Miracle. I use all those spells you just listed, though.

[Lycanthromancer]

Lycanthromancer, that is hilarious and actually a good idea. XD NOW TO GET THEM TO ADD THE NUMBERS TOGETHER RATHER THAN JUST SHOUT "48+95+21!" AT THE DM. (What's really funny is that the accountant in the group is the worst offender.)

If he was any good at math, he wouldn't BE an accountant.

[Mongoose87]

Maybe the problem isn't what you're doing as an individual so much as you have hour-long rounds?

[herrhauptmann]

A large part of the problem with buffing is that the group I'm in can't handle adding numbers on the fly. So... if I tell them that I'm casting a spell that gives them +2 to hit, they spend the next 5 rounds forgetting to add in the +2, even when reminded. I'm serious. Simplification is very important with this group.

So I could buff myself, but with a gun as my weapon and 3 melee fighters already, I'm not sure how that would help.

Is there a particular reason you stick with a gun for combat? From what I've seen, guns in every setting suck. With the worst ones requiring feats, large amounts of money per shot (from the level 5 point of view), and having less damage than a bow which requires fewer feats.
You've seen Pirates of the Caribbean right? You know how Jack just carries his pistol around and uses only once in the final seconds of fighting? Switch to a different weapon for combat, one that will benefit from more buffs than your gun. Keep your gun to use as your signature weapon, name it, make it look all flashy. But spend most of your time beating people with a mace.

That mace will benefit from divine power/favor, righteous might etc. At taht point, it doesn't matter if your base strength is in the teens, because the cleric can generally out fight the fighter.

If you really get into the buffing yourself, carry two character sheets. One is your normal self, the other has your stats with your persisted buffs. Once you've got the sheet for your normal buffs, it'll be simpler to add in the less common buffs in your head (such as haste or luminous armor)
For your group, have a couple index cards taht say "+2 attack, +2 damage" or whatever else and hand those out when you buff someone.

edit: Whoa, like 6 posts while I was typing. FREAKIN NINJAS!

[Doc Roc]

If he was any good at math, he wouldn't BE an accountant.

As a C hacker, I lawled.

[sofawall]

I've never played in an epic game before... is it really that bad?

Frankly, there is a reason every build and every suggestion made in, by or for Char Op stops at 20. Epic is stupid. Playing through the levels, you start to notices classes slipping away in terms of power, some going ahead, some falling back. The old saying is Fighters Linear, Wizards Quadratic. Wizards gain power faster, so Fighters start falling father and farther behind. In Epic, it would an understatement to say Fighters Linear, Wizards Factorial. A level 21 wizard could probably wipe out an infinite amount of level 21 Fighters, for example.

[Akal Saris]

Well, let's go through some things you can do in a fight without changing the build:

Heal people: Easy enough, but boring. Let's assume you spend 1 round a fight doing a Mass Heal to keep everyone going.

Buff people: Also boring and unfulfilling, BUT very useful. Seriously, as Jack Smith mentioned, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Recitation, and Holy Aura are terrific spells. Brilliant Aura (also Spell compendium) is another fantastic option. I have faith that your group can remember ONE buff if you write it on a piece of paper in big letters. Cast Brilliant Aura or Righteous Wrath of the Faithful every fight, and the whole party will benefit enormously. 1 round down each fight.

Ranged combat: Okay, the pistol sucks, but it's not hopeless. Wish for a +1 Reloading Precise pistol (MIC properties), which with a bit of house ruling to work with pistols should let you reload as a free action and take away your penalty to hit in melee. Spend one round buffing with Divine Agility and a quickened Divine power (you can afford a rod of this easily enough by this point), and suddenly you have +19 BAB and +10 to agility. Good as a fallback option or for combats that are obviously too easy for the party - instead of skipping your turn spend it shooting at people.

Melee combat: Alright, you don't want to do this, fair enough. It's a good option though.

Summoning: I agree on the spreadsheets here - let's avoid this. Good option though.

Utility casting/battlefield control: Lots of good options here. Greater Bestow Curse can shut down an opponent, Vulnerability gets rid of DR, Greater Stone Shape re-arranges the battlefield completely. Just 1 round/combat with one of these can really change things.

Save or die's: It seems you don't have high enough stats to succeed on these, so we'll skip them.

Blasting: Blasting isn't optimal, but it sounds like you might enjoy it a few rounds each fight. Good spells from Spell Compendium: Radiant Assault, Bolt of Glory, Cometfall, Dragonbreath. You could spend 3-4 rounds blasting with these spells. The Storm domain (see below) also has some great blasting spells - in my 13th level game the real blaster of the group isn't our wizard but our storm/weather specialized cleric. She puts the rest of the party to shame.

Charming: The Dragon domain (see below) gives Mass Suggestion and Dominate Monster - you could spend a round to take control of some monsters and steal the DM's notes for them. Combat won't really take longer since you'll be taking away time that the DM would otherwise have had to spend. This would be a good option against humanoid opponents who you don't want to kill.

Domains: There's a 2nd level spell in Complete Champion that lets you switch your domains for the day as long as its from the same deity. Bahamut has the Air, Good, Dragon, Luck, Protection, Nobility, and Storm domains.

Basically, I think most combats run ~10 rounds at high levels. Pick some spells from all of the things I mentioned, plus your usual teleports and divinations for out of combat. With a varied enough list, you should easily be one of the most important members of your party in combat. Good luck!