so. bloodlines.

[The Rabbler]

bloodlines. these look rediculous. I showed my DM and he okay'd using them in a campaign. I have a few questions as to how these could break our game.

one: the titan bloodline ability Use Oversized Weapon. by getting this, couldn't you effectively use a gargantuan warhammer and base your weapon damage off 4d6? lets say you start with a greatsword. using strongarm bracers, that'd get you to 3d6. then you get the ability and you can suddenly use a 4d6 warhammer and, with strongarm bracers, you could pick up one size larger. then you get sizing on it and pile up the size-enhancing buffs to get you a colossal++ weapon. please tell me this does not work. also: would weapon aptitude work with this or is that strictly feat-only?

two: it was mentioned somewhere these are free levels. Is this referring to the way that abilities get gained over time despite not actually having to take more than 3 levels in the bloodline?

three: someone brought up that this could get you 9th level maneuvers by level 12. how does that work?

[Starbuck_II]

bloodlines. these look rediculous. I showed my DM and he okay'd using them in a campaign. I have a few questions as to how these could break our game.

one: the titan bloodline ability Use Oversized Weapon. by getting this, couldn't you effectively use a gargantuan warhammer and base your weapon damage off 4d6?

Nope. It doesn't explain that you can weield gargantuan weapons. It says you can wield a gargantuan warhammer (just like the titan). So that is all you can wield.

two: it was mentioned somewhere these are free levels. Is this referring to the way that abilities get gained over time despite not actually having to take more than 3 levels in the bloodline?

The SRD mentions why they sound like free levels:

Although, RAW agrees that they are free. I feel bad about abusing RAW like this.

Class levels of "bloodline" do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does...

If they do not increase your level than you are still same XP total meaning you can take another level in it or something else.

It is somewhat a silly fact, but yeah, they are free levels.

[The Cat Goddess]

Nope. It doesn't explain that you can weield gargantuan weapons. It says you can wield a gargantuan warhammer (just like the titan). So that is all you can wield.

The SRD mentions why they sound like free levels:

Although, RAW agrees that they are free. I feel bad about abusing RAW like this.

If they do not increase your level than you are still same XP total meaning you can take another level in it or something else.

It is somewhat a silly fact, but yeah, they are free levels.

I'm sorry, but that is not RAW. That is "taking a line out of context".

If you're a Fighter with a Titan Bloodline, you take levels like so:

1. Fighter, 2. Fighter, 3. Bloodline, 4. Fighter, 5. Fighter, 6. Bloodline, 7. Fighter, 8. Fighter, 9. Fighter, 10. Fighter, 11. Fighter, 12. Bloodline, 13+. Fighter.

You Do Not get to take 3. Bloodline and then take 3. Fighter.

A Generous DM might let you buy off the levels like ECL (which is reasonable, given the benefits are similar to ECL... just spread out over 20 levels).

The advantage comes in a Bloodline level (actual level spent on Bloodline, not level you get a bonus from your Bloodline) counts as a level for level-dependent abilities.

So a level 13 Wizard with 3 bloodline levels (as the Fighter example above) would have spells as a level 10 Wizard, but have a Caster Level of 13.

If you had 2 Monk levels, 2 Rogue levels, 2 Wizard levels, 2 Cleric levels, 2 Swordsage levels and 3 bloodline levels, you would have a caster level of 5 for Wizard & Cleric, have 3d6 backstab (as a 5th level rogue), have unarmed damage, AC bonus & movement bonus as a 5th level Monk and qualify for maneuvers as if you were a 9th level Swordsage (1/2 of non-Swordsage levels (4) + Swordsage levels (2) + Bloodline levels (3) = 9 )

[Doc Roc]

CG is correct, and this is the ruling that I have seen used through-out the serious optimization community. Ain't no rest for the wicked, power don't grow on trees.

[The Shadowmind]

While bloodlines can be used to make broken things, it seems there more intended focus or better use is to make multiclassing less painful.

[Mongoose87]

I wish they'd just said something like "When you take a Bloodline level, you gain a one level increase in Level Adjustment." That would've made things so much simpler.

[sofawall]

Ain't no rest for the wicked, power don't grow on trees.

You know I can't slow down, I can't hold back.

[The Cat Goddess]

I wish they'd just said something like "When you take a Bloodline level, you gain a one level increase in Level Adjustment." That would've made things so much simpler.

Yes, it would.... but by RAW, you can't buy off Bloodline levels and you can buy off LA.

Of course, as I mentioned, many GMs will let you buy off Bloodline levels.

Some GMs will even give you 0+Con Mod hitpoints and 0+Int Mod skill points for your Bloodline levels... though by RAW, you don't get that.

[Milskidasith]

You know I can't slow down, I can't hold back.

Oh there ain't no rest for the wicked
Until we close our books for good...

[The Rabbler]

You know I can't slow down, I can't hold back.

though I wish I could. no, there aint no rest for the wicked, 'till we close our eyes for good.


anyway: with that ruling, it seems like bloodlines aren't very useful. if nothing that I brought up originally works, how are bloodlines any good/broken?

EDIT: song ninja'd

[Tavar]

I think that there's some build that gets Ninth level manuevers in all disciplines ~level 12 using bloodlines, though I have no idea how it works.

[Doc Roc]

Basically, it says:
well, each bloodline level is +1 to my effective level for class abilities.
these PrCs and classes all have class abilities that give me IL.
these are separate abilities and separate classes.
So each 1-dip in a PrC is a straight +4 to your IL.
Each dip in an initiator class is... well that part is debated.

but at the least.

Warblade 3/Bloodline 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Bloodline 2/RkV1/Bloodclaw Master 1/Swordsage 2

5+6
+4
+4

I may be screwy on the specifics, it's been a LONG time since I built one of these. Almost 10 months.

[Milskidasith]

I think that there's some build that gets Ninth level manuevers in all disciplines ~level 12 using bloodlines, though I have no idea how it works.

I think it was the fact that, by RAW, they advance per level stuff such as initiator levels, while at the same time since they aren't a martial class (technically) they give .5 IL per level because of that, so you get 1.5x progression.

EDIT: Or it could be that your IL gets quadrupled like Doc Roc said. He's the boss on this.

[Rainbownaga]

Nope. It doesn't explain that you can weield gargantuan weapons. It says you can wield a gargantuan warhammer (just like the titan). So that is all you can wield.

Surely there is something wrong there. Anyone else imagining a titan-blooded gnome weilding a gargantuan warhammer? Just how big would it be?

Oh, and you still only get 5' range.

'K brain broken now.

[Lycanthromancer]

Surely there is something wrong there. Anyone else imagining a titan-blooded gnome weilding a gargantuan warhammer? Just how big would it be?

Oh, and you still only get 5' range.

'K brain broken now.

Awakened gerbil.

[Rainbownaga]

Awakened gerbil.

What I really pity is that gerbil's ancestor.

[Temotei]

power don't grow on trees.

This makes me want to homebrew a racial progression for trees. I don't know why.

[sofawall]

Surely there is something wrong there. Anyone else imagining a titan-blooded gnome weilding a gargantuan warhammer? Just how big would it be?

Oh, and you still only get 5' range.

'K brain broken now.

That is the part that has always broken my brain.

"What do you mean my 25 ft. long Greatsword only has 5 ft. reach?"

[The Rabbler]

Basically, it says:
well, each bloodline level is +1 to my effective level for class abilities.
these PrCs and classes all have class abilities that give me IL.
these are separate abilities and separate classes.
So each 1-dip in a PrC is a straight +4 to your IL.

... huh. that amounts to what I was expecting from bloodlines cheese-wise. this would leave a character pretty devoid of class features though (excluding the bloodline abilities).

anyway: assuming ToB is not being (ab)used, would bloodlines be considered useful for builds? and which bloodlines give the most useful abilities?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Welcome to the forums cat_goddess!

Some Reading

PBMC out

[Pluto]

anyway: assuming ToB is not being (ab)used, would bloodlines be considered useful for builds? and which bloodlines give the most useful abilities?

Any time you don't expect a campaign to hit level 12, there's no reason not to take one.

[Doc Roc]

Welcome to the forums cat_goddess!

Some Reading

PBMC out

I think, basically, that this is probably an overly specious reading of some text. Particularly given that by this reading, they are literally something for nothing, and to get to it, we must interpret some text out of context in a purely literalistic way. Unless I'm not following you, and what you mean is:

You are level 2.
You level up, and you take a blood line level.
You do not, in any sense, go up a level, and you now need the same experience all over again to hit 3.

Which could be read in there, but I think is probably still too generous in one's estimation of the authorial intent as Not Totally Crazy.

[The Cat Goddess]

Welcome to the forums cat_goddess!

Some Reading

PBMC out

So, you're saying that I would progress like so:

1. Fighter, 2. Fighter, 3. Bloodline, 3. Fighter, 4. Fighter, 5. Fighter, 6. Bloodline, 6. Fighter, etc.?

I would essentially buy the same character level twice... once for Bloodline and once for Class?

Sadly, that's not how the example is written, nor is it how the text is written. You are clearly doing poor rules-lawyering to essentially buy your LA (Bloodline) and not suffer any downside for having an LA (Bloodline).

Using your interpretation, anyone who doesn't buy a Major Bloodline is cheating themselves... because only 2 or 3 levels after buying a Bloodline level (thanks to lower level characters earning more XP from encounters than their higher level party members) you'll be pretty-much fully caught up with the rest of your party.

[Doc Roc]

Worse, it explicitly breaks skill caps in your example, meaning that you literally have to be insane not to take them, because you can get into many PrCs up to three levels early.

Sub chord 2 at level 9 is not good news. I could do better, but why bother?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

While on the subject of bloodlines, is it possible to take multiple bloodlines, assuming you pay all the levels? A player of mine wants to make a fire-elemental-ish character, and thought that taking both efreeti bloodline and fire elemental bloodline would fit the bill.

I'm not worried about power level (nothing would benefit from bloodline levels except for her CL, and I run a high-powered game anyway), and I don't see anything in the RAW limiting you to a single bloodline. If anything, I'd figure bloodlines are effectively separate 3-level classes like racial paragons that you can multiclass as normal--heck, if you can be two different kinds of half-dragon and three different kinds of half-elemental with the same character, two bloodlines isn't all that crazy.

Thoughts?

[Amphetryon]

While on the subject of bloodlines, is it possible to take multiple bloodlines, assuming you pay all the levels? A player of mine wants to make a fire-elemental-ish character, and thought that taking both efreeti bloodline and fire elemental bloodline would fit the bill.

I'm not worried about power level (nothing would benefit from bloodline levels except for her CL, and I run a high-powered game anyway), and I don't see anything in the RAW limiting you to a single bloodline. If anything, I'd figure bloodlines are effectively separate 3-level classes like racial paragons that you can multiclass as normal--heck, if you can be two different kinds of half-dragon and three different kinds of half-elemental with the same character, two bloodlines isn't all that crazy.

Thoughts?

It's only an issue with specific cases, like Hellfire Warlock or such, where you can progress the dice beyond their normal caps in a non-epic environment. Otherwise, if you're cool with it, things should be fine.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

It's only an issue with specific cases, like Hellfire Warlock or such, where you can progress the dice beyond their normal caps in a non-epic environment. Otherwise, if you're cool with it, things should be fine.

If a player's cheesing it out with Hellfire Warlock or binder level stacking or something, obviously you'd want to veto it as a DM, but is there any RAW against it? Just want to make sure it's on firm ground rules-wise, whether or not I eventually end up rule-zeroing it anyway.

[Starbuck_II]

I think, basically, that this is probably an overly specious reading of some text. Particularly given that by this reading, they are literally something for nothing, and to get to it, we must interpret some text out of context in a purely literalistic way. Unless I'm not following you, and what you mean is:

You are level 2.
You level up, and you take a blood line level.
You do not, in any sense, go up a level, and you now need the same experience all over again to hit 3.

Which could be read in there, but I think is probably still too generous in one's estimation of the authorial intent as Not Totally Crazy.

Yep, that was what I was saying. Even though that is RAW how it is worded, it feels like abusing RAW.

[Optimystik]

Are these bloodlines the same as the sorcerer ones in Dragon Compendium? I see the two terms used a lot and get them confused often.

[Flickerdart]

No, these are the Unearthed Arcana bloodlines.