Back to the drawing board.

[The Rabbler]

My group has started getting annoyed at the quality of my characters and the fact that theirs don't compare as well. they didn't take kindly to my new character concept.

so, I need a new character that'd be fun to play but wouldn't completely outshine everyone else.

for refference, we have:
a blaster/buffer wizard (he wants to go into Candlecaster. mainly for fun)
a warmage (has some idea of what he's doing, but he isn't quite there)
an incarnum character of some sort (he's a great player, but he made a sub-par character to not overshadow everyone)
a skillmonkey(also a great player. just there to be useful)
a barbarian (fairly good player who tries to hit stuff)
a tripper fighter/rogue (mediocre player who has yet to discover the amazing combos behind tripping)
a monk (no introduction needed)
a TWF-er (fairly new player with a love for all things optimized)
a healbot (also a fairly good player. doesn't understand CoDzilla.)
and me, the tank

(yea, we have a LOT of players, but they aren't all there every meet)

so, what I need is a build that'd help the party without hogging the spotlight. mainly just something that can be useful at any time but not completely dominate.

[The Cat Goddess]

Straight Crusader... or perhaps Crusader/Warblade.

[Doc Roc]

Levels?
Sources?
Target Tier?

[The Rabbler]

any and all books allowed.

level 5 right now, ideally I'd like to have a build without much multiclassing though. it'll look fishy.

as for target tier, probably 3 or 4. I would rather not be a caster, simply because I'd be oh so tempted to break it and I'm good with melee'rs.

I just need to do stuff well without piling damage up, for the most part.


and as for crusader/warblade, that's what I am now and they're getting angry with the fact that I can whip out a 2h and do more than the warmage in one standard action.

[gdiddy]

Play with a guisarme and mithral buckler.

Guisarme and mithral buckler?

With your guisarme and mithral buckler!

A few days ago Lycanthromancer suggested a Bardsader build as a team player in another thread, which I think would be fun. Everything about it screams teamwork. Lyric-belching, White Raven Tactics-filled, Shield bonus +4 to your friends, boot to the face teamwork.

[The Rabbler]

A few days ago Lycanthromancer suggested a Bardsader build as a team player in another thread, which I think would be fun. Everything about it screams teamwork. Lyric-belching, White Raven Tactics-filled, Shield bonus +4 to your friends, boot to the face teamwork.

the problem with this is that this would would also set off some alarms. They'd think I was the only reason we were beating our encounters.

I'm considering factotum for this, but I don't know what else wouldn't make me overpowered.

[gdiddy]

If they're giving you trouble for being too much, then I suggest you play a concept, rather than a build.

Like a warlock with the fey heritage feats from Complete Mage. Bam. With those, you are now no longer in any way optimized. You are good at surviving and dealing with a single opponent or playing with swarms while flying. Nothing game breaking. Nothing that can handle whole encounters.

[erikun]

Bard? Use your songs from passive buffs to the party, and mix it up in combat to grant flanking. Actually, on second thought, you might want to try Marshall instead if you're worried about the Bard's spellcasting.

I would think a Binder would give you some fun options without being too overpowering.

Perhaps something fun, like a Pyrokineticist? You certainly won't be overpowering, and randomly making enemies explode is always enjoyable.

[The Rabbler]

Bard? Use your songs from passive buffs to the party, and mix it up in combat to grant flanking. Actually, on second thought, you might want to try Marshall instead if you're worried about the Bard's spellcasting.

I would think a Binder would give you some fun options without being too overpowering.

Perhaps something fun, like a Pyrokineticist? You certainly won't be overpowering, and randomly making enemies explode is always enjoyable.

I've never even looked at a marshall, is it worthwhile?

I was considering a binder, but I've never played one and I didn't want to bring it up unless it'd be a safe bet.

funny story with the pyrokineticist. my last character was a psywar/pyro and he was the best character in that campaign as well. tons of damage on the weapon + hostile empathic transfer made me pretty much unbeatable. we didnt get far enough for me to blow stuff up.

[gdiddy]

Here's the Marshall:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b

[erikun]

I've never even looked at a marshall, is it worthwhile?

The forum doesn't seem to want me to stay logged in. Oh well.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b
There's the link for the class online. It's considered relatively weak, as the auras don't do anything terribly powerful and it doesn't do much beyond a Warrior outside that. It might be a good idea if you're worried about outshining everyone else, though.

The psywar/pyro probably dominated because it was a Psychic Warrior, not a Pyrokineticist. Good luck convincing the other players that, though. I suppose a Soulknife/Soulbow would be another option, although other players may complain about you becoming a "superarcher".

(Note: Soulbows are not particularly power, just efficient enough to outshine unoptimized characters.)

Do you have any other fun ideas? I like the idea behind an Ultimate Magus, but it will likely outshine the Warmage and Wizard. (or everyone else, if it focuses on illusions) Wildshape Ranger sounds like it would be a lot of fun, as long as you focus more on interesting animals rather than powerful to shapeshift into. I'm trying to think of a good buffing class, but something like a Cleric would both outshine the Healer and make everyone thing your buffing is the only thing making them effective.

[Doc Roc]

My suggestion is Factotum.
Factotums fill the gaps that the shields leave open.

[The Rabbler]

My suggestion is Factotum.
Factotums fill the gaps that the shields leave open.

right. I want to use a factotum as well, but in my experience, factotums are fairly useless without some other class tacked on.

[Doc Roc]

right. I want to use a factotum as well, but in my experience, factotums are fairly useless without some other class tacked on.

And there you are wrong, sir. Are you familiar with your friend and mine, font of inspiration? :)
Also, it'd be hard to be useless in this party.

[Milskidasith]

And there you are wrong, sir. Are you familiar with your friend and mine, font of inspiration? :)
Also, it'd be hard to be useless in this party.

I recall a build I built (in gestalt, though) for Factotum that took Font of Inspiration so many times I could actually probably beat up a fighter by taking low BAB swings at him and hoping for natural 20s. Can't recall how I got the absurd int bonus, though I'm pretty sure it used infinite loop cheese that would have been banned in any game anyway.

[The Rabbler]

And there you are wrong, sir. Are you familiar with your friend and mine, font of inspiration? :)
Also, it'd be hard to be useless in this party.

well, i suppose with iaijutsu it could do some damage, but what could it really do on it's own? even with lots of inspiration points?

[Eldariel]

well, i suppose with iaijutsu it could do some damage, but what could it really do on it's own? even with lots of inspiration points?

You can do a lot of Sneak Attack Damage, spellcasting (you'll actually get fairly good in it in a couple of levels since all your spells can be of level 1 lower than Max so your growth is comparatively much stronger than casters' though you start off much, much worse and only ever cap out at 7), UMD, Int-based martial controlling (Int to Str-checks), etc.

Really, it's like you're a SAD Rogue with the ability to take extra Standard Actions and ace any skill checks (honestly, Sleight of Hands, Knowledges, Forgeries, Handle Animals and such can do so ridiculous stuff when used at the right moment it's not even funny). And when you gain the capstone mimic abilities, things get nuts. But like, you have excellent martial melee or ranged capability as a single-classed Factotum, along with a strong dose of spellcasting and tricks depending on which exact skills you go with (also note that Factotum + Knowledge Devotion = pain...for your enemies).

[gdiddy]

Why don't you ask your DM?

Factotums are either really fun to DM for, or really annoying. I realize they're a lot of fun to play, but my other DM buddy hates them with a firey passion.

If you want to play a tank, why not play a druid with no natural spell? It's definitely tanky and you won't need to worry about having spells become the whole of your build?

Or play any LA race with no buy off?

You're a good player, so you really can make lemonade with whatever you're working with.

[Doc Roc]

You'd be taking factotum to level 8 anyway. So you can always class away later.

[The Rabbler]

You can do a lot of Sneak Attack Damage, spellcasting (you'll actually get fairly good in it in a couple of levels since all your spells can be of level 1 lower than Max so your growth is comparatively much stronger than casters' though you start off much, much worse and only ever cap out at 7), UMD, Int-based martial controlling (Int to Str-checks), etc.

Really, it's like you're a SAD Rogue with the ability to take extra Standard Actions and ace any skill checks (honestly, Sleight of Hands, Knowledges, Forgeries, Handle Animals and such can do so ridiculous stuff when used at the right moment it's not even funny). And when you gain the capstone mimic abilities, things get nuts. But like, you have excellent martial melee or ranged capability as a single-classed Factotum, along with a strong dose of spellcasting and tricks depending on which exact skills you go with (also note that Factotum + Knowledge Devotion = pain...for your enemies).

alright, this sounds like a lot of fun, but I'm not seeing how a lot of these abilities work together to create awesomeness before level 19. how do I get sneak attacks? Is there a way to be a fairly powerful factotum without spending 2 inspiration points per attack? any other good tricks to know?

EDIT:

@Doc Roc: this is true...

[Doc Roc]

Is ToB allowed? If so, take martial study + martial stance for Assassin's stance.
Flaws allowed?

[The Rabbler]

Is ToB allowed? If so, take martial study + martial stance for Assassin's stance.
Flaws allowed?

flaws are allowed.

ToB has generally been accepted, but I think our DM is making a correlation between me using lots of martial adepts and me having very very good melee characters, so this might be banned soon. though I would have loved to grab assassin's stance and put craven on top.

oh well, any other ideas?

[Eldariel]

alright, this sounds like a lot of fun, but I'm not seeing how a lot of these abilities work together to create awesomeness before level 19. how do I get sneak attacks? Is there a way to be a fairly powerful factotum without spending 2 inspiration points per attack? any other good tricks to know?

Cunning Strike works for Sneak Attack. And yeah, you can have just as much as Rogue in To Hit from Str or Dex; you just can add your Int to it too if you so desire and Knowledge Devotion it up if you want some further bonus and hell, Trip if you feel so inclined (Int to check, ability to Enlarge Person yourself, etc.).

Honestly, you can make a great Int/Str Fighter Factotum if you so want, maybe dipping one level in some Generic Dip Class to get Medium/Heavy Armor Proficiency for the early levels (Barbarian, Warblade, Crusader, Fighter are all reasonable options), etc. You can also make a great Int/Dex/Str Archer Factotum utilizing Cunning Surge in combination with Manyshot and possibly Int To Hit for massive salvos, again using your magic to buff (don't forget, you've got access to Alter Self, among others).


Really, a Factotum can play out much like a Gish if you build it in such a way, or as a rather dedicated sneak/fighter. With UMD (get Wands of divine buffs, Cure Light Wounds, various class/race/alignment-limited items, etc.). It's not really a tall order to make a Factotum who rocks in combat. And yeah, Haberdash is a good example of how to put Factotum class features in good use.

[Godskook]

For you my friend? I recommend a truenamer. Maximize to your heart's content, for no matter what you do, you're still a truenamer.

Other possibilities include leaving a group so dumb that they actually discourage playing decent melee.

Avoid Binder. If they struggle with your ToB characters, a binder will throw them for a loop.

[The Rabbler]

question about tripping: is someone flat-footed when they're tripped? it seems like they would be.

if so, I think I know what I'm going to make. I'll make a tripper factotum with quickdraw/quicksheath and a spiked chain who throws around iaijutsu damage with sneak attack and craven.

any problems with that idea? mechanics/viability-wise?

though this might be doing too much...

[gdiddy]

question about tripping: is someone flat-footed when they're tripped? it seems like they would be.

if so, I think I know what I'm going to make. I'll make a tripper factotum with quickdraw/quicksheath and a spiked chain who throws around iaijutsu damage with sneak attack and craven.

any problems with that idea? mechanics/viability-wise?

though this might be doing too much...

Yes, probably too much.

The second everyone is trapped and you say "No problem guys, I have Gaseous Form, I'll get us help!" They will beat you up with rolled up character sheets and make you play a halfling monk.

[The Rabbler]

Yes, probably too much.

The second everyone is trapped and you say "No problem guys, I have Gaseous Form, I'll get us help!" They will beat you up with rolled up character sheets and make you play a halfling monk.

well damn. I was having fun with that concept.

next idea... CoDzilla? too much? probably.

why does it seem like factotum + truenamer would mesh really really well...?

[Doc Roc]

They don't. Nothing meshes well with True Namer.

Honestly, just try factotum, and stick to helping teamies with a modicum of heart-stabbing.

[The Rabbler]

They don't. Nothing meshes well with True Namer.

Honestly, just try factotum, and stick to helping teamies with a modicum of heart-stabbing.

well there goes that idea.

factotum it is. now all I have to do is find something worthwhile to do without resorting to doing it all myself.

thanks for the advice, playground. I think I can take it from here.

[gdiddy]

I don't know why you are working in the paradigm of "I am going to do anything I can get away with in game, short of making everyone angry." Because that means you will be making them mad at you, as you test their boundaries and tolerances. How many rerolls are you planning on making?

If playing a character that is more high-powered than the group is so important, maybe you should look for a different group?

A factotum isn't a wizard, but it is never out of its element, it can always do something pretty useful, just like full casters and many ToB builds. If you're in a group that is not always extremely useful at everything, people are going to see anything you do as overpowered. Part of this is play style and keeping yourself reigned in.

I noticed you divided your party into good players and bad players. I assume this is a tactical distinction and not a descriptor of their habits and politeness at table. You're obviously skilled enough that it makes people have less fun when you blow through encounters like nothing. Why not stop playing on Easy? Marshalls can be shocktroopers, and Glaivelocks can debuff, Hexblade and Duskblade are loads of fun. If you want a real challenge, play a Samurai.

Play a tier 5 or 4, because it sounds like that's what the party is playing at. It sounds like a well-played ToB character made them feel impotent. They don't sound like they want you to carry the team. And no party I have ever met enjoys it when one player can replace any of them with a single class feature. It's frustrating and takes away from their fun.