[3.5] Frenzy fix

[Kosjsjach]

So it's apparent that the main drawback of the Frenzied Berserker PrC is the extreme likelihood of the PC simply flipping out and murdering his fellow party members. The default advice is simply "don't play it!", but it's one of the more flavorful barbarian/dedicated melee PrCs out there.

What if there was an item that, when worn, suppresses the PC's frenzy and/or rage ability? Let's say it could be removed as part of a move action. When removed, the character frenzies as normal (with the included possibility of friendly fire), but then his allies can lock him down (grease, calm emotions). It prevents him from prematurely wasting his frenzies (stepping on caltrops, being sniped, etc.), and makes the character vastly more viable without completely removing the major liability and "balancing factor" of the ability.

Is this a good/bad idea? How would you price such an item? What would it even look like? I was thinking a collar of sorts...

[Eldonauran]

Heheheh, you could make a 'collar' of Calm Emotions. That spell ends and prevents rages and frenzies. I like the idea too. Have it keyed that only the touch of the party wizard/rogue/character with UMD and a certain word will surpress the effects of the collar.

Pricing? As a DM, I would allow the rules found in the DMG for creating new items to be followed to the letter. Its as much a help as a hinderance.

[NeoVid]

From what I've seen, the standard solution to the Frenzied Berzerker is to make sure the FB's Will save is high enough that he can automatically make the check to end the frenzy.

[Amphetryon]

A collar of Calm Emotions might work.

The other usual advice is a wand of Grease, since the FB isn't allowed to make Balance checks in a Frenzy.

[Eldariel]

From what I've seen, the standard solution to the Frenzied Berzerker is to make sure the FB's Will save is high enough that he can automatically make the check to end the frenzy.

Or give him Merciful weapon or some Grease contingency (can't balance in frenzy).

[Kosjsjach]

From what I've seen, the standard solution to the Frenzied Berzerker is to make sure the FB's Will save is high enough that he can automatically make the check to end the frenzy.

There's a problem with that solution, mainly lying in the Will DC to resist:

[...] In addition, if she takes damage from an attack, spell, trap, or any other source, she automatically enters a frenzy at the start of her next action, as long as she still has at least one daily usage of the ability left. To avoid entering a frenzy in response to a provoking effect, the character must make a successful Will save (DC 10 + points of damage taken since her last action) at the start of her next turn.

If the FB takes even 1 point of damage, that's a DC 11 Will save right there. Any nut with a heavy crossbow just has to beat his AC to potentially force a DC 20 save.

The only option (off the top of my head) that makes this more viable without jumping through hoops or denying the flavor of the FB is Steadfast Determination from PHII which swaps Con for Wis to Will saves. And that won't reliably guard against anything significant.

Pricing? As a DM, I would allow the rules found in the DMG for creating new items to be followed to the letter. Its as much a help as a hinderance.

While that sounds like a good idea, the price makes it a bit prohibitive: a continuous item of calm emotions would cost 2(spell level)*3(min. caster level)*2000gp*4(spell duration is measured in rounds) = 24000gp. The MIC prices such an item as appropriate for a 15th- or 16th-level character.

Is there a RAW way to bring this down to a comfortable level?

[Kosjsjach]

...The other usual advice is a wand of Grease, since the FB isn't allowed to make Balance checks in a Frenzy.

Or give him Merciful weapon or some Grease contingency (can't balance in frenzy).

While true and effective, the problem I'm trying to mitigate is the involuntary initiation of Frenzy. A character only gets so many, and then they're used up and gone. Hit-and-run tactics by a foe are incredibly effective, not just on the FB, but on his entire party, who have to neutralize him, then wait for him to make his Will save or his Frenzy to expire.

[Eldonauran]

While that sounds like a good idea, the price makes it a bit prohibitive: a continuous item of calm emotions would cost 2(spell level)*3(min. caster level)*2000gp*4(spell duration is measured in rounds) = 24000gp. The MIC prices such an item as appropriate for a 15th- or 16th-level character.

Is there a RAW way to bring this down to a comfortable level?

Yeah. Limit the classes that can use it, assign an alignment restriction or race restriction. While a bit cheesy, I would allow such as a DM simply because the item is being crafted for a very specific purpose. Anyway, limiting the item to being activated/turned off by another character is a good way to lessen the 'cost' of the item.

[Escheton]

against the whole getting sniped thing. Just get him a spearblock buckler with an arrow deflecting crystal

[oxybe]

well a FB will have what... 2-4 base will at high levels (this is assuming some fighter/barb multiclass)?

+5 from a cloak of resistance
+4-5 base wis (12-14 wis and an amulet of wisdom)
+2 iron will feat
+1 luck (stone of good luck)
+2 from rage (the benefits of rage and frenzy do technically stack as they're both unnamed)

so somewhere in the environs of +15 will save by default, with some variance based on what your class progression looks like. lots of ways to get that save up to the 18 needed (a natural 1 is a failure on saving throws. so with a 19 a 1 would still fail, even though you hit the DC of 20, so the minimum you need is 18 + a 2 on a d20)

not too hard to "auto-pass"

[Eldariel]

While true and effective, the problem I'm trying to mitigate is the involuntary initiation of Frenzy. A character only gets so many, and then they're used up and gone. Hit-and-run tactics by a foe are incredibly effective, not just on the FB, but on his entire party, who have to neutralize him, then wait for him to make his Will save or his Frenzy to expire.

That's more of an inherent issue with Frenzy; it makes you powerful, but is very hard to control. Best option: Be faster than the opposition. But seriously, you aren't going to get a drawbackless Frenzy. Even the fact that opposing caster using Grease on you (unless you're flying) makes it pretty crappy. You can only pump your Will-save so much and at the point where one arrow deals 28 points, well, you just aren't making those DC 38 Will-saves.

Getting +18 and reroll 1s relatively early (level 10 or so) is a good goal and achievable, but trying to make the save vs. damage...well, sufficient to say you better be willing to pimp the crap outta your saves for that.

[SilverStar]

BoED has Righteous Wrath, which according to description should work to totally negate the frenzy homicidal mania.

[Demons_eye]

Iron heart surge?

[BenTheJester]

Iron heart surge?

Or Moment of Perfect Mind. It only requires Martial study(or a single level of Warblade, which would probably be better) and boosts your will save immensely once per encounter(and 1/round if you took that level in warblade), and you don't auto-fail on a natural 1.

[lsfreak]

Or Moment of Perfect Mind. It only requires Martial study(or a single level of Warblade, which would probably be better) and boosts your will save immensely once per encounter(and 1/round if you took that level in warblade), and you don't auto-fail on a natural 1.

Except you can't use Concentration during Rage/Frenzy.

[ZeroNumerous]

not too hard to "auto-pass"

Or just take Steadfast Determination and replace all those +Will boosts with +Con boosts. Get HP and have a massive Will save ontop of never auto-failing a Fort save on a 1.

[Runestar]

MIC has this cheap mask which gives +4 insight bonus to will saves.

Savage species has cumbrous will. Simply get around the drawback by getting immunity to fatigue somehow, say warforged or that FR regional feat?

[BenTheJester]

Except you can't use Concentration during Rage/Frenzy.

Ugh, forgot about that.

Are there any other way to not fail a Will-save on a natural 1?

[Thurbane]

Dumb Luck feat (CS) - treat any natural 1 on a save as a 20.

[Kosjsjach]

Alright, so the consensus seems to be "don't bother, boost your Will save and hope for the best". I can respect that, but I still like the idea of a emotion-neutralizing collar. Let me change the question to: How would you price a collar of calm emotions (or something that gives the desired effect)? The base price (using the magic item crafting guidelines) is 24'000gp.

Is 24k an appropriate price for such an item? What price would you set it as? Should the wearer be able to turn it off, or should it require an outside party? (I know it's purely speculative at this point, as any such item would be in DM-territory, but I'd still like to hear your opinions.)

[Godskook]

Ugh, forgot about that.

Are there any other way to not fail a Will-save on a natural 1?

Not important, as Moment of the Perfect Mind is for the save to avoid auto-frenzy. You can use concentration checks to avoid frenzy because you're not actually in frenzy yet.

And due to the wording, you get 2 will saves before you are forced to attack friends at the end of a manual frenzy(Once at the end of the turn where you kill the last bad guy, and once at the start of the turn where you have no one else to attack but friendlies) A 1/400 odds event is one you can prepare specific contingent spells for, such as: "Whenever our friend(by name) attempts to attack me, Dim-Door straight up, 400ft". Since it'll almost never happen, the contingent spell will last a very long time before your berserker removes it.

[Runestar]

You can use concentration checks to avoid frenzy because you're not actually in frenzy yet.

What about when you are raging+frenzying during combat and want to stop?

[sonofzeal]

BoED has Righteous Wrath, which according to description should work to totally negate the frenzy homicidal mania.

+1. RAW is a little awkward since the wording refers to Rage, but Rage isn't usually treated as doing what the feat stops anyway, and CW established good precedence for letting Rage stuff work for Frenzy and vice versa.

[Godskook]

What about when you are raging+frenzying during combat and want to stop?

That's just a DC 20, which with Steadfast Determination, a Con of +10 or greater, a cheap MiC item granting +4 insight, a cloak granting at least +3 to saves, and +2 from levels, and you'll only fail it on a 1.

And that's where the second(and longer) paragraph in my previous post comes in, since failing that save twice happens only 1/400 of the time.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

That's just a DC 20, which with Steadfast Determination, a Con of +10 or greater, a cheap MiC item granting +4 insight, a cloak granting at least +3 to saves, and +2 from levels, and you'll only fail it on a 1.

And that's where the second(and longer) paragraph in my previous post comes in, since failing that save twice happens only 1/400 of the time.

This, a thousand times over. If anyone is going to go Frenzied Beserker, they'd best make sure they can make the freaking save to not kill his team, least he eat wizardry death. I may or may not have had a similar experience where I actually bothered going two-to-two with a Frenzied Beserker once as a Wu Jen Gish.

[lsfreak]

That's just a DC 20, which with Steadfast Determination, a Con of +10 or greater, a cheap MiC item granting +4 insight, a cloak granting at least +3 to saves, and +2 from levels, and you'll only fail it on a 1.

The biggest problem is fitting Endurance + Steadfast Determination in, along with Frenzied Berserker's rather hefty feat requirements and Shock Trooper, which you likely want. Human Barb4/Fighter2/Frenzied+X with 2 flaws can manage to work all 8 feats in by 6th level, but human isn't ideal, flaws aren't guaranteed, and fighter dips sometimes aren't wanted. An orc with no flaws could fit everything in by 12 level with Barb2/Fighter4/Frenzied+X, but that's delaying Shock Trooper a lot, and you've still got the problem of only having a single rage.

[Olympus]

The Frenzy drawback has never seemed that large to me. I'm currently DMing a game with a Frenzied Berserker and it works out fine, the players are just very careful and casually walk away when the last of the enemies dies.