[3.5] So... um... Pit Fiend?

[PId6]

So, we're currently a mid-level party averaging ECL 13-14 in the middle of a factory-like tower that seems thematically aligned with iron and fire-based creatures. It's been a very long dungeon so far, and we've made slow progress over the last few sessions. Our party is generally extremely optimized (admittedly almost entirely my fault), and the DM has previously dealt with that by sending vastly higher CR monsters at us, leading sometimes to far too difficult encounters and other times having encounters as complete cakewalks when they shouldn't be. It's generally been okay so far though.

Well last session, the DM has informed me (out of and in character) that we're going to be facing a pit fiend in this dungeon. Now, one of the spellcasters we've already faced in this dungeon has given us a taste of the power of Blasphemy, and I have to say, I'm not looking forward to it again, especially not as an at-will SLA. Out of the entire party, only me and maybe another person are immune to the spell (Evil alignment), and since we're so much lower level than the encounter level, Blasphemy is pretty much guaranteed to paralyze half the party and daze-lock/weaken most of the rest.

Party:

Me, a level 14 Fiend of Possession/Ardent/Thrallherd acting through my Half-Minotaur Dungeoncrasher Fighter/Warblade thrall (though party thinks I'm the minotaur). The thrall has the Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Knockback combo, while my actual character has some useful powers in Astral Construct, Expansion, Major Creation, Psionic Dominate, and Metamorphosis (with Metamorphic Transfer) all at ML 10. Unfortunately, the DM has ruled that since we're in some kind of demiplane rather than the Prime Material, the Ethereal Plane does not exist here and thus I'd prefer not having to unpossess my thrall since I likely won't be able to get back in for quite a while.

A level 12 Wizard/Incantatrix focused entirely on blasting. He has metamagic'd Orbs up the wazoo, but is extremely fragile (he uses almost no buffs at all). The player isn't even with us half the time, making relying on his character a risky proposition at best.

A level 14 DMM Cleric/Entropomancer who buffs heavily. The Entropomancer is houseruled to only lose one caster level, and the DM promised him a Sphere at 17th level if he takes the class . He can persist 3 spells a day (usually Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Mass Lesser Vigor, and something else), as well as use various hours-long buffs (Hero's Feast, Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestments, Superior Resistance). He has a Rod of Chaining.

A level 14 Druid/Planar Shepherd, whose class features are gutted so that he can't get any 10 rounds to 1 shenanigans. He's pretty satisfied with buffing up and smashing face. Chosen plane is Arborea, so probably nothing too abusable.

A ... rogue, I think, who's pretty content to stay invisible all the time and not do anything during combats. Has kept him alive so far, I guess. Indeterminate alignment, and probably won't matter much since he doesn't actually fight (has great out of combat skills though).

And that's probably it. The remaining two members are a Swift Hunter who dropped to a Symbol of Death last session, and a Frenzied Berserker that always tries to TPK the party, who fortunately died to said pit fiend last session and will soon be reincarnated as a Mind Flayer monk once we find his body (don't ask).

We will be getting a rest before we (probably) fight the pit fiend next session. We're not allowed to go shopping for magic items or scrolls, so we're pretty much left with what we have and the spells we can prepare, all sources open. The pit fiend's almost certainly going to have reinforcements, most likely more of the golems and steel predators we've seen throughout the tower, and potentially more creatures with class-levels as well. A Forbiddence effect hangs over the area, preventing teleportation over the area (so I can't even Psionic Teleport out if things turn south).

Any strategies for not getting slaughtered? Some protection or defense against Blasphemy would be awesome, but even then, the pit fiend's very dangerous by itself. And without Blasphemy-insurance, the wizard, if he's here, would be knocked out in a single hit while the Cleric and Druid would potentially be Str-damaged to insignificance. I doubt I can take on a CR 20 with this character alone, especially not if it has helpers (not to mention its 1/year Wish). Would really love some strategies or spell suggestions or whatever (especially cleric persist targets).

tl;dr: Pit fiend about to Blasphemy us to death. Advice?

[Project_Mayhem]

What's your diplomacy like? You're evil - you could switch sides

[Runestar]

Heroes feast to tackle his fear aura and disease.

At your lv, greater spell immunity is not accessible. Your best bet seems to be silence (since blasphemy is a sonic spell) cast on your tanks, but bear in mind the pit fiend can still dispel this.

Alternatively, attempt to disrupt his attempts at using SLAs by having the casters ready actions to fire damage spells at him when he tries to activate a SLA. It does have a fairly high touch AC though. Sr can be an issue as well, and bear in mind its resistances and immunities.

Fluff-wise, a pit fiend has no business using its wish during combat, though your DM can easily ignore this. This is possible the biggest uncertainty, but I simply assume he will use wish as a "get out of jail free" card, rather than offensively (such as emulating an AMF and proceeding to devastate the party by grappling them+biting+poison).

Another problem is its insanely high AC and regeneration. How reliably can you hit AC44? There is also the issue of it summoning in 2 horned devils to help. Some means to combat this?

Maybe freedom of movement vs its grapple/constrict and mass hold monster SLA. Fire resistance against its fireball/meteor swarm.

Its full-attack routine isn't really all that scary. Assuming you have time to buff thoroughly, it is not an impossible fight.

These are just some general tips to deal with its expected tactics.

[PhoenixRivers]

Silence is an option, but is noticeable and dispellable.

I'd recommend actually using Deafness to counter blasphemy.

You can dispel it when you need to, and otherwise, it's a foolproof defense vs such effects.

[nargbop]

I would suggest having at least two people on interrupt-the-SLA duty. Delay action until the PF's action, then damage him.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...lLikeAbilities
Check with with DM to ensure that SLAs can be interrupted by damaging the Pit Fiend and causing a Concentration check to finish the SLA. DMG page 289 does not say specifically that you can do this.

The unholy aura is problematic, causing STR damage to melee attackers. You will either have to use a spell to grant immunity to ability damage ( Stone Body, Iron Body ) , use spells , or use ranged attacks.

[PhoenixRivers]

I would suggest having at least two people on interrupt-the-SLA duty. Delay action until the PF's action, then damage him.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...lLikeAbilities
Check with with DM to ensure that SLAs can be interrupted by damaging the Pit Fiend and causing a Concentration check to finish the SLA. DMG page 289 does not say specifically that you can do this.

The unholy aura is problematic, causing STR damage to melee attackers. You will either have to use a spell to grant immunity to ability damage ( Stone Body, Iron Body ) , use spells , or use ranged attacks.

Using a spell-like ability while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.

You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.

It's pretty clear.

[Eldariel]

If you have some means to notice it's being used (Battlemagic Perception?), readied Silences in the area of the Pit Fiend would work just as well and efficiently negate his Blasphemies at the cost of one of your actions each round while the others kick the living outta him.

[Keld Denar]

There is a feat in Lords of Madness called Swift Recovery. It allows you to make a save to negate a host of effects, among them Daze and Stun, as a move action on your own turn if you started your turn under the effects of one of them. The clincher is that it allows you to make a save even if the origional effect doesn't allow a save, and it gives you a formula to assign a save to the effect.

If you have a good will save, this is the best way to counter blasphemy. I'm guessing that your characters are already though, so I guess it doesn't help much.

PS: Hi PId6! You should restart your frozen waste game again!

[PhoenixRivers]

If you have some means to notice it's being used (Battlemagic Perception?), readied Silences in the area of the Pit Fiend would work just as well and efficiently negate his Blasphemies at the cost of one of your actions each round while the others kick the living outta him.

Mass Hold Monster is one of the big powers to watch for. Expect 3 times where you're going to see a fireball along with actions.

Freedom of Movement is required reading for this.
Dimension Anchor, also (block the teleport)
True Seeing is ideal (Illusions)
Fire Resist 30 will protect you mostly from the Fireballs, as well as from Meteor Swarm.
Mind Blank if you can get it, to protect from Power Word Stun.
Hero's Feast, to protect from poison and fear.

Beating the thing's touch AC isn't so hard (17-21). Beating its actual AC is.
On the bright side, it doesn't have a whole lot of HP, only a couple hundred. The Regeneration will be a pain, though, as will SR 32.

Focus on high damage SR: No spells, or prepare to try to make decent rolls even with Assay Resistance.

Note: This thing can, if you don't have Fire resist, REALLY hurt.

Meteor Swarm - 4 touch attacks against a single person.
If all hit? 24d6 fire damage + 8d6 bludgeoning damage (No save)
Followed by Fireball (Quickened) 10d6 fire (reflex half).

Assuming you pass the save, that's an average of:
Swarm: 112 damage
Fireball: 17 damage
Or, about 130 damage.

Now, with Fire Resist 30, assume the save is FAILED.

6d6 fire (21) + 2d6 (7) bludgeon per orb = 7 damage per orb (fire resist 30)
4 orbs = 28 damage

Fireball = 10d6 fire (35) = 5 fire damage.
Or about 33 damage to the primary target. (5 damage to secondary protected targets in the blast - assuming all saves passed)

And that's a level 2 resist energy spell. So keep your resists up.

[TheMadLinguist]

Silence is an option, but is noticeable and dispellable.

I'd recommend actually using Deafness to counter blasphemy.

You can dispel it when you need to, and otherwise, it's a foolproof defense vs such effects.

Sticking wax in your ears is probably a better idea, so you have less issue with enemy dispels.

[Stompy]

Is running an option? (It seems like a viable good option.)

[Pluto]

Sticking wax in your ears is probably a better idea, so you have less issue with enemy dispels.

...

Simple, elegant.
I love it.

[Doppelganger]

Grease? It'll fail one check in four on average. Only one check in twenty badly enough to fall, but it's a start.

[PhoenixRivers]

Grease? It'll fail one check in four on average. Only one check in twenty badly enough to fall, but it's a start.

Fly/Teleport kinda make that less than fantastic.

[herrhauptmann]

Sticking wax in your ears is probably a better idea, so you have less issue with enemy dispels.

That's very mythic of you. Odysseus did just taht, didn't he?

[PId6]

What's your diplomacy like? You're evil - you could switch sides

Lawful Evil my good sir. I'd sooner break someone's skull than break my word!

Silence is an option, but is noticeable and dispellable.

I'd recommend actually using Deafness to counter blasphemy.

You can dispel it when you need to, and otherwise, it's a foolproof defense vs such effects.

I forgot Blasphemy was a [sonic] spell. That makes things a lot easier. I can manifest Mindlink so communication should still be fine even if we're deaf. Does Deafness counter Blasphemy though? Being deaf doesn't give immunity to sonic, and nothing in the spell description says you have to actually hear it. The casters probably wouldn't like 20% spell failure too. Would Energy Immunity [Sonic] do the same thing?

Another problem is its insanely high AC and regeneration. How reliably can you hit AC44? There is also the issue of it summoning in 2 horned devils to help. Some means to combat this?

The summoning shouldn't be an issue; the DM has already told us that the Forbiddance stops all planar travel, so summonings should fail automatically.

AC 44 is a problem. I can hit that easily on a charge, but will have trouble with it if I'm already in melee, especially if I want to Power Attack for good damage through its DR. The druid might have more trouble, but if he he buffs beforehand with Bite of the Werebear and get insanely high Str, he should be able to hit though. The animal companion will be useless, and the cleric likely won't be going into melee since her to-hit is much lower.

If you have some means to notice it's being used (Battlemagic Perception?), readied Silences in the area of the Pit Fiend would work just as well and efficiently negate his Blasphemies at the cost of one of your actions each round while the others kick the living outta him.

The cleric has low enough Spellcraft though that she would fail to recognize the spell half the time. Battlemagic Perception would still let her notice the SLA being used, but if she doesn't identify the spell, she might cast the readied action as soon as an enemy uses another random spell or another SLA like Quickened Fireball, and leave us defenseless to a Blasphemy. Only one is enough to screw the party over.

Grease? It'll fail one check in four on average. Only one check in twenty badly enough to fall, but it's a start.

It can fly though, so I don't think that'll be much hindrance.

Sticking wax in your ears is probably a better idea, so you have less issue with enemy dispels.

I don't think we actually have any wax, though I could potentially make some. Are there any types of wax-like substances that are considered plant or mineral matter?

Is running an option? (It seems like a viable good option.)

Already done that once. And probably not as a permanent solution, though I'm certainly going to if things go bad.

The unholy aura is problematic, causing STR damage to melee attackers. You will either have to use a spell to grant immunity to ability damage ( Stone Body, Iron Body ) , use spells , or use ranged attacks.

The druid and I are the only ones likely going into melee with it, and neither of us are Good so we don't have to worry about the Str damage. The cleric is, but she likely won't hit in melee anyway.

Freedom of Movement is required reading for this.
Dimension Anchor, also (block the teleport)
True Seeing is ideal (Illusions)
Fire Resist 30 will protect you mostly from the Fireballs, as well as from Meteor Swarm.
Mind Blank if you can get it, to protect from Power Word Stun.
Hero's Feast, to protect from poison and fear.

No Mind Blank, and Dimensional Anchor isn't necessary with the Forbiddance in effect. We all have Scout's Headbands so those deal with illusions nicely.

List of buffs to have so far:

Hero's Feast
Resist Fire on each party member
Freedom of Movement on each party member (yay clerics and druids!)
Energy Immunity [Sonic] on each non-evil party member (?)
Activate True Seeing

Anything else? Also, any offensive spells the cleric can use that can actually harm this thing?

If you have a good will save, this is the best way to counter blasphemy. I'm guessing that your characters are already though, so I guess it doesn't help much.

Yep, characters are set so can't change feats (didn't take Psychic Reformation unfortunately). We can't even buy items beforehand so no way to get Mind Blank.

PS: Hi PId6! You should restart your frozen waste game again!

Maybe in a few weeks. Exams are peering around the corner these days so I don't have as much time as I'd like. Would love to once classes are done for the semester though.

[DragoonWraith]

Hey FFF! How's it going? I finally released NifScript NifSE v1.0 alpha!

I don't think we actually have any wax, though I could potentially make some. Are there any types of wax-like substances that are considered plant or mineral matter?

Carnauba wax would work well, I think.

[The Cat Goddess]

That's very mythic of you. Odysseus did just taht, didn't he?

Odysseus had his crew do that... then had himself lashed to the mast so he could hear it and not interfere with the crew.

Fire Resistance really is the key. Keep the Orb-Wizard in reserve to only interrupt the Pit Fiend's casting. If the Wizard has a high enough initiative and you get a surprise round, he can get a surprise blast in... but he absolutely must have a better initiative than the Fiend or that first round he (and most of the party) will be taken out by the Blasphemy.

Interrupt every casting the Fiend does. Arcane Sight or some other way of knowing when a spell is being cast is important because SLA's don't require verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components. They do provoke attacks of opportunity, but don't rely on that since the Pit Fiend has enough Concentration to just cast defensively.

I say interrupt every casting because anything he does is bad for you... plus, if it's interrupted, it loses it's standard action for the round.

If there's enough room, keep your Wizard back far enough and get him a Ring of Evasion and/or things to pick his Reflex Save up as high as possible since he's going to be the target of those 3 quickened Fireballs it can cast.

[PhoenixRivers]

I forgot Blasphemy was a [sonic] spell. That makes things a lot easier. I can manifest Mindlink so communication should still be fine even if we're deaf. Does Deafness counter Blasphemy though? Being deaf doesn't give immunity to sonic, and nothing in the spell description says you have to actually hear it. The casters probably wouldn't like 20% spell failure too. Would Energy Immunity [Sonic] do the same thing?

No. Energy Immunity only protects from Hit Point damage, nothing else.

Anything else? Also, any offensive spells the cleric can use that can actually harm this thing?

Cometfall would be good, if you can align the spell to have the [good] descriptor. It's SR: No, and will bypass the DR, but not the bludgeoning damage. Reflex for half, but there's a weakness in every plan.

[PhoenixRivers]

Interrupt every casting the Fiend does. Arcane Sight or some other way of knowing when a spell is being cast is important because SLA's don't require verbal, somatic, material, focus, or XP components. They do provoke attacks of opportunity, but don't rely on that since the Pit Fiend has enough Concentration to just cast defensively.

I say interrupt every casting because anything he does is bad for you... plus, if it's interrupted, it loses it's standard action for the round.

The Pit fiend can cast 2 SLA's a round. What if the one the orbizard counters is the fireball?

On a side note: Give the Pit fiend Negative levels. Drop that CL low enough and Blasphemy is useless.

[Pluto]

Does Deafness counter Blasphemy though? Being deaf doesn't give immunity to sonic, and nothing in the spell description says you have to actually hear it. The casters probably wouldn't like 20% spell failure too.

Damn. You're right. I could have sworn that spell was Language-dependent.
That rules earplugs out too.

Would Energy Immunity [Sonic] do the same thing?

"...Energy immunity absorbs only hit point damage..."

Silence would still work, if you could find a way to cast through it.

[Darkxarth]

Unfortunately, my skill at optimizing characters is low, and my knowledge of obscure spells and tactics is as well. However, I do have a suggestion. Do you have to fight the Pit Fiend? I mean, sure, it is worth tons of XP and it's evil, but do you have to actually fight it?

A Pit Fiend is a devil, which means almost certainly LE. Devils (unlike Demons) tend to be after only one thing when they are not at home: power. For most, that means collecting souls and/or puppets on the Material Plane. However, there are other means of acquiring power. Why not make a deal with this Devil? Sure, you are likely to have a hard time of whatever deal is made, but surely it can't be worse than suffering a TPK?

The only reason I can think that the Pit Fiend would not be willing to at least listen to the offer of a deal, would be if it were captured/controlled by an outside source. Which would mean that finding some way of releasing it would be key. Convince it to go after whoever/whatever bound it, and then let it go. You may have to deal with the consequences later, but, again, you avoid a TPK.

Wish I had some super-awesome spell or a cunning plan, but this is all I've got. Good luck, and be sure to let us know how it all turns out.

[TheMadLinguist]

Isn't blasphemy just "as holy word, but causes harm to evil dudes"? I know holy word only works on people who hear it.

[PhoenixRivers]

Isn't blasphemy just "as holy word, but causes harm to evil dudes"? I know holy word only works on people who hear it.

"Any nongood creature within the area that hears the holy word suffers the following ill effects."

"Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell suffers the following ill effects."

Nope.

[TheMadLinguist]

Just one more example of evil getting all the good stuff...

[Greenish]

An argument could be made for needing to hear the blasphemy to be affected:

Furthermore, if you are on your home plane when you cast this spell, nonevil extraplanar creatures within the area are instantly banished back to their home planes. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours. This effect takes place regardless of whether the creatures hear the blasphemy. The banishment effect allows a Will save (at a -4 penalty) to negate.

The wording implies that the other effects do not take place if the creature cannot hear it.

However, while Holy Word explicitly states that "Any nongood creature within the area that hears the holy word suffers the following ill effects", Blasphemy uses different wording: "Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell suffers the following ill effects".

Assuming your characters know about the SLA, you can ask your DMs interpretation with know:arcana.

[Edit]: Yarr, bloody ninjas.

[aivanther]

Blast it really really hard? I mean, I'd have to see the mechanics of your build, but theoretically a charger should be able to smack it pretty hard with its first hit, especially with enough pre-game buffs dropped on you. Follow that up with enough damage via the wizard (twin spelled 12d6 orbs perhaps should smack it for a good 80 points of damage). With a decent surprise round, this MIGHT actually get him down fast enough to save your hide (bad solution, I know, but still theoretically possible).

Or have the wizard hit it with a twin spell, split ray of dizziness. Force it into an action economy crisis to give yourself more time to beat on it.

[Runestar]

If you have a good will save, this is the best way to counter blasphemy. I'm guessing that your characters are already though, so I guess it doesn't help much.

Blasphemy's primary effect does not offer a save.

Blast it really really hard? I mean, I'd have to see the mechanics of your build, but theoretically a charger should be able to smack it pretty hard with its first hit, especially with enough pre-game buffs dropped on you.

The key problem here is the pit fiend's regeneration, which can only be overcome by good effects. Damage spells are useful in disrupting its SLAs, but if you want it to go down permanently...

[aivanther]

The key problem here is the pit fiend's regeneration, which can only be overcome by good effects. Damage spells are useful in disrupting its SLAs, but if you want it to go down permanently...

Hence the buffing bit. I admit I was assuming silvered weapons, but bless weapon is a 1st level divine spell, is it not?

Of course, damage spells are difficult, but a twin split ray orb of force (40d6) should do enough to do enough damage to wear it down real bad, especially since it only regenerate 5 hp/round?

My knowledge of spells is a little fuzzy, so correct any errors, but please be gentle.

[Ernir]

You probably want to do something about its mobility. Blasphemy becomes a bit less scary if it can't fly into the center of your party. Can you pull of a Dimensional Anchor + Forcecage? Waves of Exhaustion might do the trick, too, you should be able to out-fly a thing that can only fly at 30' with average maneuverability.
But anything you do like that steals an action from counter-SLA-blasting, so be damned sure it's going to work.

And for the love of god, don't come into the fight unbuffed. Have Anticipate Teleportation up if you can.

Arc of Lightning is a pretty good blasting spell for the Druid if the Fiend decides to show up with some buddies. (Important thing here: SR no, targets an unresisted element.)


Are you willing to have the Minotaur thingy die? If it charges far ahead, the DM might be tempted to show off the Pit Fiend by having it start tearing that one to pieces.