If there were 5 stats

[Riffington]

Suppose you eliminated Wisdom entirely.
Gave the "perception" gig (Spot/Listen) to Dexterity; folded the rest of it into Charisma (maybe calling it Psyche). All wisdom-based class powers would go to Charisma, except for the few that were perception-based.
How much would this screw up game balance? Obviously it'd help Paladins a lot and provide a small benefit to rogues/scouts. Would it unbalance clerics much?

[Spiryt]

If Wisdom stuff was kinda equally distributed between Intelligence and Charisma (with more to Charisma, I guess) it could be fairly interesting.

I don't know how Dexterity should have anything to do with it.

[Ichneumon]

A few issues:

1. I don't understand the thematic link between Dexterity and Perception, other that that the perception stuff has to go somewhere.

2. Dexterity would become even more useful, as it is already the stat used for ranged attacks and defense. Rogues would love Dexterity even more when perception skills become part of dex, which makes Dex almost the sole attribute they need for anything the ever want to do. I think this would likely be very unbalancing.

I don't think it will unbalance clerics much.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, you lost me with the Dexterity bit. I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Octopus Jack]

Sounds fun, but then what would I do without my precious dump stat?

[Riffington]

I don't know how Dexterity should have anything to do with it.

Well, I see having good coordination and good senses as being related. I mean, I'd stereotype archers as having good eyes.
Also, the scout/ranger/rogue types seem to all have light armor/high dex.

[Gralamin]

Clerics now need to pump Charisma. This only makes it so they have Turn undead uses.

Of note:
Spirit Shaman and Favored Soul are now SAD classes
Will saves, in general are a lot higher. (Incoporeal undead especially)

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In general though, there are a bunch of ways to get Charisma to most things Wisdom covers, so I don't think it'd be that big of a change.

[Kobold-Bard]

Maybe put the perception skills under Constitution? This is following the same logic that Concentration is there (in fact it's the only skill it affects, never noticed that), so maybe for skills it can represent ability to focus?

I know Con is a big stat for every class, but it might give a teeny boon to the skill deprived Melee types

[PersonMan]

Maybe put the perception skills under Constitution? This is following the same logic that Concentration is there (in fact it's the only skill it affects, never noticed that), so maybe for skills it can represent ability to focus?

I know Con is a big stat for every class, but it might give a teeny boon to the skill deprived Melee types

I agree. It makes sense that a healthy person would have better eyes/ears than a sickly old person.

Also, I think that Will saves would probably go to Charisma, due to the whole "force of personality" thing.

[Irreverent Fool]

I think dumping Charisma makes more sense than dumping Wisdom.

obnoxious
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[Haven]

I think dumping Charisma makes more sense than dumping Wisdom.

obnoxious
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Me too. Try giving everything it does to Wisdom--maybe even go to the logical conclusion and throw diplomacy checks and the like out of the system entirely.

[TheThan]

Me too. Try giving everything it does to Wisdom--maybe even go to the logical conclusion and throw diplomacy checks and the like out of the system entirely.

you'll have to throw out charisma based classes (sorcerer, bard) as well as all the other charisma based skills like handle animal, bluff, intimidate and gather information.

[Valairn]

Those could easily be ported to wisdom, and "force of will" casters like sorcerers, could easily be ported to a mix of wisdom and constitution.

[Mongoose87]

If you're going to ditch Wisdom, I'd change it so that, instead of Intelligence, you have "Mental" or "Mind" or "Thought" and rolled all of Wisdom into it.

[The Rose Dragon]

At that point, you could just go with an entirely new system, of course. Like Unisystem or GURPS or Riddle of Steel.

[Lin Bayaseda]

I considered rolling up Wisdom and Charisma into one stat and calling it Guile, Aquity, or somesuch.

[Origomar]

feel like posting this since it is mildly related.



http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0218.html

[Soranar]

The only stat I can see which you could reasonably drop would be merging Strength and Constitution.

Adding more STATS to a system is simple, but removing any from the current one (3.5 at least) is not evident at all.

Most people I know would agree that Wisdom and Intelligence is not the same thing and that it is quite possible to have one without the other. The same goes for Charisma.

Being resilient without strength is not that common though. And a tough character that is not too strong (say a turtle) could be explained via Damage reduction.

[taltamir]

so basically, you want to eliminate charisma (a useless dump stat), and rename wisdom into psyche... I am all for it.
Charisma as written is plain dumb. Rolling it and wisdom into one stat sounds fine to me.

Most people I know would agree that Wisdom and Intelligence is not the same thing and that it is quite possible to have one without the other. The same goes for Charisma.

Excuse me, but how would people all agree that charisma is not wisdom?
The best explanation of what charisma actually IS that I have ever heard is "it is your willpower and force of personality"... well guess what, will-power is a function of wisdom.

Everyone I talked to could explain exactly what strength, dexterity, constitution, intelligence, and wisdom are... charisma is the one that is completely undefinable in a way that separates it from the other stats or is somehow related to what it is supposed to do. So I ask you, what IS charisma in DnD?

[waterpenguin43]

The only stat I can see which you could reasonably drop would be merging Strength and Constitution.

Adding more STATS to a system is simple, but removing any from the current one (3.5 at least) is not evident at all.

Most people I know would agree that Wisdom and Intelligence is not the same thing and that it is quite possible to have one without the other. The same goes for Charisma.

Being resilient without strength is not that common though. And a tough character that is not too strong (say a turtle) could be explained via Damage reduction.

I agree. DR puts in the "tough but not strong" part. The only reason STR and CON are different is for balance, I think.

[Gorgondantess]

The problem with merging wisdom into charisma is that, from an RP standpoint, I really don't think of sorcerors and bards and such as "wise" characters. In fact, quite the contrary. Then how will we be able to create our lovable low-wisdom vagabonds?

[Spiryt]

I agree. DR puts in the "tough but not strong" part. The only reason STR and CON are different is for balance, I think.

Hmmm, I don't think so.

Stuff under Constitution is usually something very different from the stuff under Strength.

D&D is of course very simple anyway, but it's easily possible to visualize someone who is very endurable, pain, shock resistant, healthy etc, but not strong.

Vice versa is also easy with some fluff of course, but quite "realistic".

On the other hand, you can put things from Wisdom to Intelligence of Charisma pretty easily, because those are much more abstract attributes.

[Saph]

I don't know . . . Wisdom and Charisma seem very distinct to me. One's perception, mental balance, and insight, the other's social presence and likeability.

Game-balance wise, I guess it would be fine, but I'd find it hard to see how perception-related stuff would go under anything but Wisdom.

[Tengu_temp]

If you need to do this, I suggest replacing Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma with two stats - Mind and Soul. Mind would have all the elements of Intelligence, some of Wisdom and a few of Charisma (such as bluff, for example), while Soul would be responsible for the rest of Wisdom and Charisma.

[Paulus]

The only stat I can see which you could reasonably drop would be merging Strength and Constitution.

Adding more STATS to a system is simple, but removing any from the current one (3.5 at least) is not evident at all.

Most people I know would agree that Wisdom and Intelligence is not the same thing and that it is quite possible to have one without the other. The same goes for Charisma.

Being resilient without strength is not that common though. And a tough character that is not too strong (say a turtle) could be explained via Damage reduction.

This logic is undeniable. If you are strong of body, that is strength. Intestinal fortitude is not will because that is wisdom, it is strength. Of body, not of mind, which is Wis and Int. This would actually boost all chars considerably because it would make everybody who adventures have reasonable strength of body. Even wizards. A turtle could also be spoken for by Natural armor. Toughness has always been linked to hit points, but we all know toughness is strength of body, stronger body equal more fortitude.

Here I was going to suggest Wis and Cha being put together because they are so similar, as well as, perceptions being more a Wis stat then Cha or strength of body, but now I'm sold on getting rid of Con.

[Mongoose87]

I played football with this fellow, Trevor. He was huge and strong as an ox. He also screamed like a little girl, when he was tackled. That is why I will never believe Strength and Constitution should be rolled into one.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Yeah, I'd agree with the anti-Con camp. It's the black sheep of the stats. Everybody needs it, but it just kind of sits there and doesn't contribute much actively (for most characters, it's more hp, higher Fort. save, and a boost to Concentration; even the Incarnum classes and DFA enjoy it passively as a save DC booster).

The question becomes: with a loss of an ability score, how would one alter point buy?

Edit: More random thoughts:

If you just had STR and DEX as the physical ability scores, you could do some interesting stuff.

DEX could apply to all melee and ranged attack rolls, while STR would apply to melee damage rolls. Skills would largely remain unchanged, perhaps making Concentration either STR-based or WIS-based.

[Lin Bayaseda]

I don't know . . . Wisdom and Charisma seem very distinct to me. One's perception, mental balance, and insight, the other's social presence and likeability.

Game-balance wise, I guess it would be fine, but I'd find it hard to see how perception-related stuff would go under anything but Wisdom.

I could very well see perception-related stuff going under Intelligence. After all, Search and Appraise are Int-based.

[pasko77]

I played once a variant with 4 stats.
STR + CON = "fortitude" and WIS + CHA = "will".
It helps a lot MAD classes and actually makes sense.

[Saph]

I could very well see perception-related stuff going under Intelligence. After all, Search and Appraise are Int-based.

Those are based on focusing on something, though. How observant you are doesn't have any necessary connection to how intelligent you are.