Tashalatora Options

[DragoonWraith]

So, I'm building a Holy Monk (see pg 58 here), with intent to take Tashalatora. The Holy Monk trades a Bonus feat for a ton of Paladin abilities: Aura of Courage, Smite Evil, and Turn Undead. Serenity makes these features key off of Wisdom, and Ascetic Knight means I could take levels of Paladin and continue to advance Unarmed Strike damage, and pick up Divine Grace for +Wis to all saves. Pretty nice.

Then I have to take Monastic Training (Monk 2 bonus feat handles that), and Tashalatora. And I very much want Practiced Manifester, Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, and Snap Kick, and I'm taking Intuitive Strike to begin with.

So that's a lot of feats; 9 all told. Monk 2 helps, as does Psy War 1 & 2 if I go that route, but that's still 6 I need with my natural feats. Human gives one, and we're using a houserule where we get a feat on every odd level, so as a Psychic Warrior I could have all of the above as a 9th level character:
Monk 2/Paladin 2/Psychic Warrior 5, Unarmed Strike of a 9th level Monk (plus SUS, INA, and Snap Kick), Manifesting of a 5th level Psychic Warrior (ML 9), Wis to to-hit, Wis to all saves, Turn Undead 3+Wis times per day, Wis to to-hit again once per day with a +4 damage on that attack, etc.

Alternatively, I could use War Mind; this means no bonus feats, but as a PrC with its own progression, it's possibly better to start War Mind at 6th than to start Psy War at 5th?

The other option is Ardent, which also costs 2 bonus feats, but has all kinds of other advantages. I can get some of those advantages by losing a single bonus feat and taking the Mantled Warrior ACF on Psy War, but it seems to me that it's better just to be an Ardent at that point.

Finally, the obvious thing to do is forget about this Paladin silliness, and take Psy War or more likely Ardent right at 3. This kind of wearies me, though, because it's so typical. Also, is Serenity still worthwhile here if I don't have Divine Grace?

Oh, actually, there is another option - Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 3/War Mind, or Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Ardent or Psychic Warrior. Assuming Monk and Unarmed Swordsage stack for Unarmed Strike damage (regardless of whether or not they do by RAW, I doubt my DM would have a problem with that anyway).

I'm kind of curious what people think about my various options, what's optimal, what's coolest, etc, whatever. I suspect that Monk 2/Ardent is where it's at, but Divine Grace is pretty tempting...

By the way, the campaign is pure hack and slash. Just for information.

Oh, and Slayer would be incredibly fitting for this character.... OK, losing 5 ML seems like a bad plan. Hmm...

[Prime32]

If you're taking levels of paladin anyway, there doesn't seem to be much point in trading a bonus feat for some of their abilities (you have other options). You won't have enough levels in either class to get much benefit out of Ascetic Knight without screwing your manifesting ability.

Consider a cloistered cleric dip leading into prestige paladin.

One level of Shiba Protector grants +Wis to hit and damage.

Also, assuming your DM doesn't enforce multiclassing penalties, see if you can drop the Monastic Training prereq from Tashalatora or at least change it to something vaguely useful. Like Toughness.

[Ernir]

I'd say dump the Paladin stuff. It burns into your feats and delays entry into the manifesting classes. And unless I am missing something, that's two levels that are not benefiting from Tashalatora.


And no, the DM in question does not enforce multiclassing penalties.

[ErrantX]

Other than powering divine feats (which you admittedly haven't many feats to spend on such) there isn't a reason to take Holy Monk. Simply going Paladin 2 / Ardent (or Psychic Warrior) with Monastic Training, Serenity, and Tashalatora would suffice, and minimize manifester loss. Going psychic warrior would net you more of the feats you want, but much better powers/power points with Ardent, plus mantles.

-X

[Keld Denar]

Its of note that Tashalatora doesn't stack all of your psionic classes, only the one that you took Monastic Training for. This really inhibits jumping into something like Divine Mind, Slayer, or War Mind.

Really, the strongest option is the simplest. Monk2/PsyWar18. That frees up the most resources to take other strong options.

[Prime32]

Really, the strongest option is the simplest. Monk2/PsyWar18. That frees up the most resources to take other strong options.

Or maybe Monk 2/Ardent 18, or Monk 2/Psion 18 with Carmendine Monk.

Psionic Fist could be interesting if it stacks with Tashalatora, though not otherwise (also, it requires 3 levels of monk, urgh...) A Monk 6/Psionic fist 10/Fist of the forest 3/Shiba protector 1 would, IIRC, have a +100ft speed bonus and Wis+6 AC Bonus

[Mongoose87]

Or maybe Monk 2/Ardent 18, or Monk 2/Psion 18 with Carmendine Monk.

Psionic Fist could be interesting if it stacks with Tashalatora, though not otherwise (also, it requires 3 levels of monk, urgh...) A Monk 6/Psionic fist 10/Fist of the forest 3/Shiba protector 1 would, IIRC, have a +100ft speed bonus and Wis+6 AC Bonus

RAW, you should be able to apply Tashalatora to it, shouldn't you?

[DragoonWraith]

Its of note that Tashalatora doesn't stack all of your psionic classes, only the one that you took Monastic Training for. This really inhibits jumping into something like Divine Mind, Slayer, or War Mind.

Really, the strongest option is the simplest. Monk2/PsyWar18. That frees up the most resources to take other strong options.

Baaaaahhh, you're right, I'd forgotten about that. Argh. That... pretty much kills most opportunity for creativity right there, IMO. Grr.

[Doc Roc]

The strongest is, as mentioned, actually Mo 2/ Ardent 18, thanks to dominant ideal and the mantle-swap ACF.

[DragoonWraith]

Yeah, I came to that conclusion as well.

Frustratingly, I cannot take most of the feats I want at 1st. SUS requires BAB +3 (4th), INA requires BAB +4 (6th), Snap Kick requires BAB +6 (8th, or 9th since I won't have a feat at 8th), Practicd Manifester requires Psicraft 4 (3rd? I guess?), Tashalatora requires Autohypnosis 5 (3rd if I can take it after placing my skill points for the level), and Monastic Training is the only one that can be taken as a Monk Bonus Feat. I have absolutely no use for any of my options for the 1st level Monk Bonus Feat, as far as I can tell - we're using the Pathfinder Monk, so I get Stunning Fist no matter what, and I have neither the Strength nor the Dexterity for the other feats on the list that don't suck (Combat Reflexes and Improved Grapple). I guess I could get Deflect Arrows... but Smite Evil, Turn Undead, and Aura of Courage seem at least as good as Deflect Arrows.

Is there a list any where of the feats that can be taken as Monk Bonus Feats?

[Prime32]

Kalashtar have a racial substitution level which lets them take any psionic feat as their 2nd-level monk bonus feat.

I already linked to the monk handbook.

[Optimystik]

Tashalatora renders Psionic Fist all but obsolete. It gets no class features, half the PP of a Psywar (which is already starved itself) and an even more limited power list (5th-level max, as opposed to 6.) Any game that allows the feat shouldn't even consider that PrC in my opinion.

[DragoonWraith]

Kalashtar have a racial substitution level which lets them take any psionic feat as their 2nd-level monk bonus feat.

I give up my Human Bonus Feat and the Holy Monk features for a Psionic Bonus Feat? Why doesn't that seem like a great trade?
Because Kalashtar are awesome, that's why. OK.

I already linked to the monk handbook.

So you did, I missed that. But while the Feat section is very helpful, it doesn't list which ones are available as Monk Bonus Feats.

[Zergrusheddie]

What would be some of the better mantles to pick up aside from the amazing Dominate Ideal one at level 10?

[Prime32]

So you did, I missed that. But while the Feat section is very helpful, it doesn't list which ones are available as Monk Bonus Feats.

You're looking for the alternate class features section.

[Optimystik]

What would be some of the better mantles to pick up aside from the amazing Dominate Ideal one at level 10?

Eh? Dominant Ideal is an ACF, not a mantle am I misreading something?

[Keld Denar]

For 1st level, you could take Scorpions Grasp, Abberant Blood (Flexible Limbs), or Shape Soulmeld depending on what you want to do.

Scorpion's Grasp(Sandstorm) gives you a kind of Improved Grab, allowing you to start a grapple against anyone you punch. With a high base UAS damage, grappling is a potent option for a Tashalatoran.

Abberant Blood(Lords of Madness) gives you a +2 on grapple checks, and is a prereq for taking Inhuman Reach, a feat that gives you reach with your UASs. Those 2 also pave the way to take Deepspawn, a lovely little piece of work that gives you another +2 grapple, and 2 1d4 tenticle attacks (that will also have reach from Inhuman Reach) that you can use as 2ndary natural attacks even while flurrying.

Shape Soulmeld gives you a TON of options, the most common for a grappler is Kraken Mantle, which, when bound to your Arms chakra gives you the Constrict ability which gives you bonus damage every time you succeed in an opposed grapple check, even your opponents checks to try to escape. Constrict is NICE. There are a bunch of other options as well like Airstep Sandels for a limited flight, Adamant Paudrons which give you 25% fortification, Basilisk Mask gives you lowlight vision and 30' dark vision, Blink Shirt gives you 10' dim door as a standard action, Bloodtalons give you the effects of the Diehard feat, Mantle of Flame gives you a retributive 1d6 flame aura, Pauldrons of Health give immunity to Disease, Sickened and Nausiated conditions, Planar Ward gives you a type of persistant Protection from Evil, Strongheart Vest reduces incoming ability damage by 1, and Wormtail Belt gives you a +2 NA.

Lots of options there, and even more if you invest at 6 or 12 in Open Least/Lesser Chakra respectively.

[DragoonWraith]

Shape Soulmeld was my choice too... I note that Fellmist Robe's Concealment does not state that you cannot hide with it, which seems appropriate for the character.

Grappling wasn't my plan, honestly; I don't have the Str for it. I'm looking for a quick, mobile, tactical damage-dealer, mostly. Though... D&D doesn't generally handle that very well.

Ideally, I want to be able to be the one who, at the start of the combat, gets into the enemy's back lines, takes out some tactical target (read: caster), and gets out. Stealthy, but combat-oriented stealth, if you get what I mean?

[Lycanthromancer]

I took two Shape Soulmeld feats: shedu crown (immunity to being forcefully moved and 100' telepathy) and phase cloak (go ethereal when you move more than 5'). Both are absolutely awesome.

[balistafreak]

I took two Shape Soulmeld feats: shedu crown (immunity to being forcefully moved and 100' telepathy) and phase cloak (go ethereal when you move more than 5'). Both are absolutely awesome.

... hate to be a killjoy, but, no, no you don't get those abilities, not without specifically Chakra Binding them. Shedu Crown only grants Telepathy with a Crown bind, Phase Cloak only grants etherealness with a Shoulder bind. You'll need a lot of Incarnum levels to get the ability to bind, or two more feats, specifically a 6th level feat and 12th level feat, for four feats total.

Otherwise, you'll only be getting the immunity to pushing and +4 to climb checks (and ability to take 10 on them). You don't even have essentia to improve the melds.

The main lesson here is that in Incarnum, shaping a soulmeld =!= chakra binding it. Think of it as the ability to build a house/hotel in Monopoly. Yes, you own the property and get some benefit from it but it'll take something special to get its full potential. You still need the property to build the house in the first place, though, and the property takes up its slot whether or not it has the house on it.

This is why Incarnum is merely good, not broken. What you describe is simply stupidly powerful for the cost of one feat. Sorry.

[DragoonWraith]

Fellmist Robes does give 10% + 5% / Essentia Concealment just for shaping it, though. One of the better shaping options, IMO. Though there are better... I should probably go through my handy-dandy Excel file on that...

[Lycanthromancer]

... hate to be a killjoy, but, no, no you don't get those abilities, not without specifically Chakra Binding them. Shedu Crown only grants Telepathy with a Crown bind, Phase Cloak only grants etherealness with a Shoulder bind. You'll need a lot of Incarnum levels to get the ability to bind, or two more feats, specifically a 6th level feat and 12th level feat, for four feats total.

Otherwise, you'll only be getting the immunity to pushing and +4 to climb checks (and ability to take 10 on them). You don't even have essentia to improve the melds.

The main lesson here is that in Incarnum, shaping a soulmeld =!= chakra binding it. Think of it as the ability to build a house/hotel in Monopoly. Yes, you own the property and get some benefit from it but it'll take something special to get its full potential. You still need the property to build the house in the first place, though, and the property takes up its slot whether or not it has the house on it.

This is why Incarnum is merely good, not broken. What you describe is simply stupidly powerful for the cost of one feat. Sorry.

This is why I ALSO learned psionic open chakra and am augmenting (and in the case of the phase cloak, Overchanneling) it each day to bind them at level 11 (ML 10).

Also, check out what happens when you bind a metamagic rod.

[balistafreak]

This is why I ALSO learned psionic open chakra and am augmenting (and in the case of the phase cloak, Overchanneling) it each day to bind them at level 11 (ML 10).

Also, check out what happens when you bind a metamagic rod.

Gaaaaaaa! This is why I hate system overlap - there's always something the other system will do to screw with your understanding of the first. Touche, sir. I cede the point, verily.

As for the item-binding, I've always thought it a poorly-drawn out idea. It even says "suggested" for a reason. But then again, a whole lot of other stuff we take for granted is supposedly merely "suggested" as well... hah, the power of +1 caster level.

[Lycanthromancer]

Get a rod of multiple metamagics (ie, metamagic rod of lesser Extend/Extend/greater Extend/lesser Quicken/etc) to bind for even more fun.

Also, there are several REALLY nice psionic feats hanging around in MoI, and a couple of really nice powers, as well (psionic open chakra and soul crystal, specifically), and a lot of the soulmelds work really well with psionic powers. There's even Psionics of Incarnum in The Mind's Eye.

Gotta love MoI.

[Optimystik]

Gaaaaaaa! This is why I hate system overlap - there's always something the other system will do to screw with your understanding of the first. Touche, sir. I cede the point, verily.

On the contrary - this is precisely why system overlap is awesome and should have been encouraged through web enhancements as much as possible.

It's also why I love the Soul Manifester PrC - psionics and incarnum make great bedfellows.

[ErrantX]

On the contrary - this is precisely why system overlap is awesome and should have been encouraged through web enhancements as much as possible.

It's also why I love the Soul Manifester PrC - psionics and incarnum make great bedfellows.

Agreed, I used an Ardent/Incarnate/Soul Manifester in a game once. Was awesome.

Overall, I think the best of possible worlds for a Tashalatoran is Monk2/Ardent18 or if you want to use the curious wording of Tashalatora to it's fullest, Paladin2/Ardent18 (and use Tashalatora to give you the worthwhile abilities of a level 18 Monk on top of it) and use Serenity to cut down on the MAD.

-X

[Optimystik]

Agreed, I used an Ardent/Incarnate/Soul Manifester in a game once. Was awesome.

Overall, I think the best of possible worlds for a Tashalatoran is Monk2/Ardent18 or if you want to use the curious wording of Tashalatora to it's fullest, Paladin2/Ardent18 (and use Tashalatora to give you the worthwhile abilities of a level 18 Monk on top of it) and use Serenity to cut down on the MAD.

-X

I don't actually have Secrets of Sarlona - is the actual wording of the feat very different from what they posted online? The wording there specifically mentions "monk levels."

[Prime32]

I don't actually have Secrets of Sarlona - is the actual wording of the feat very different from what they posted online? The wording there specifically mentions "monk levels."

That's not the effect of the feat, just a summary.

[Optimystik]

That's not the effect of the feat, just a summary.

I know, which is why I was asking.

Unless your table is running Eberron (specifically, a Sarlona campaign) that's probably the only version of the feat you're likely to see. So if it differs significantly from the actual feat's wording they should have thought about that before summarizing it officially.

[Keld Denar]

TASHALATORA
*snip*
Prerequisites: Autohypnosis 5 ranks, Concentration 5 ranks, Monastic Training (psionic class), ability to manifest 1st-level powers.
Benefit: Your levels in the psionic class you selected for Monastic Training stack with your monk levels to determine your AC bonus, flurry of blows attacks, and unarmed damage from the monk class.

Explicitly calls out monk levels. Wouldn't stack with anything that wasn't explicitly monk levels.