[3.5] Need to Burn Extra Feats for Incarnum Characters

[balistafreak]

Cheese Warning: The following characters take advantage of an extremely vague wording of the Vow of Poverty to assume that the "bonus feats" past the first "bonus exalted feat" are not exalted, and use this wording to trump the table for lots and lots of bonus feats. If this reading makes you sick to your stomach, please don't argue it and simply imagine that these characters simply have a few unused feats from levels, mmmk?

A second bit of minor cheese is possibly the "infinite flight" reading of Airstep Sandals that interprets the benefit of chakra binding as removing the "land on a solid surface" requirement.

I have a pair of characters that I've been itching to use for a while now, of 6th and 5th level. The 6th level one is an Incarnate6, with Leadership and Close Cohort to facilitate the 5th level Totemist2/Incarnate3.

Both characters are Dragonborn (Heart) Warforged. This gives them a breath weapon, +4 to Constitution, and -2 to Dexterity, Wisdom, and Charisma. Both have taken the Vow of Poverty for loads of bonus feats, namely one every even level.

The Incarnate6 normally shapes Soulspark Familiar (bound to Crown), Airstep Sandals (bound to Feet), Dissolving Spittle, Lifebond Vestments, and Vitality Belt. (The meld past the norm for the level comes from a Shape Soulmeld feat.) The idea is to use Share Soulmeld to turn the Familiar into a shouldercannon for Dissolving Spittle and as a healbot that can use Lifebond Vestments, only to mitigate the self-damage caused by it by using essentia to fast-heal. Meanwhile, the Incarnum6 can literally fly around the battlefield and shoot his own Dissolving Spittle, interspersed with lines of dragonbreath that will more often than not be affected by the feat Entangling Breath, which is basically guaranteed to entangle a target within range if it lacks Evasion or has ridiculously flexible energy resistances.

The Totemist2/Incarnate3 normally shapes Manticore Belt (bound to Totem), Wormtail Belt, Blink Shirt, Sighting Gloves, Bluesteel Bracers, and one other Incarnate Soulmeld depending on the situation, with a Chakra Bind to Crown floating around to spare. While at this level unable to fly around, a Blink Shirt helps. The idea here is to use the fact that Manticore Belt ranged-spine ability is a natural attack to stack with Touch of Golden Ice, not only damaging opponents from afar but also slowly paralyzing them. This character also has the ability to breathe Entangling Breath to facilitate kiting. The next level taken will provide Airstep Sandals with a Chakra bind to let him (it? her? it's a warforged, after all) keep up with the Incarnate6.

Overall, the idea is for these two characters to basically act as ranged damage and harassment, with whatever flexibility Incarnum can offer in the skill-department on the side.

Now that the character goals have been laid out, here's the lowdown on the feats. The Incarnate6 has a spare feat at 4th level or lower, a spare feat at 3rd level or lower and an Exalted Feat at 1st level. (No Bonus Essentia - both 6th level feats have been taken by Leadership feats.) Meanwhile, the Totemist2/Incarnate3 has two spare feats, one at 4th level or lower, one at 3rd level or lower.

The Incarnate6 currently has Shape Soulmeld, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Entangling Breath, Leadership, and Close Cohort.

The Totemist2/Incarnate3 currently has Entangling Breath, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Touch of Golden Ice, and Expanded Soulmeld Capacity.

At first when I made these characters, my thought was, "I'll just throw extra feats into Essentia feats for bonus Essentia." However, that didn't really pan out - all of those feats have the irritating line of rules that forces the Essentia to stick, and I hate having an option that seems like an open sinkhole. That, and the current Soulmelds really don't need extra essentia or capacity past what the Incarnum levels have provided - spending multiple feats to specialize in Soulmelds is not what I'm looking for.

What I am looking for are either ways to improve the goals of the characters (to provide ranged damage and harassment with excellent mobility) or to provide additional flexibility outside of the Incarnum department.

Now that I've outlined this information, can the wisdom of the GitP forums help me out? I spent a good evening doing nothing but contribute, and I firmly believe in forum-karma.

[Lycanthromancer]

Adamantine Body. Vow of Poverty or not, +8 to AC is quite nice. Use Item Familiar on your nice new body armor (since it's enhanceable, but technically doesn't actually cost money, since it's a body part). Or, you could use Item Familiar on your slam attack.

Wild Hidden Talent: psionic minor creation (one level 1 psionic power at manifester level 1, +2 pp, and the [psionic] subtype, which allows you to take psionic feats and have a psionic focus). Then take several [incarnum] feats and Psicarnum Infusion, which allows you to expend your focus to fill those [incarnum] feats with essentia for 1 round (which lasts all day, according to the [incarnum] feats themselves).

[DragoonWraith]

I believe that's Hidden Talent, not Wild Talent, that you're talking about there, Lycanthromancer. Also, can Warforged take Adamantine Body after they've lost their composite plating due to being Dragonborn? I guess they can. Man, Dragonborn is such a silly Template.

[Lycanthromancer]

I believe that's Hidden Talent, not Wild Talent, that you're talking about there, Lycanthromancer. Also, can Warforged take Adamantine Body after they've lost their composite plating due to being Dragonborn? I guess they can. Man, Dragonborn is such a silly Template.

I always get those two confused, which is strange considering how I'm considered the resident psionic guru, and all.

Thanks for the correction, bud.

And yes, they can take Adamantine Body after becoming dragonborn.

I'm not sure how relevant it'll be once you start wracking up those VoP bonuses, but maybe you could take Psiforged Body instead? Start storing those excess power points in your self-contained storage crystals, and you can manifest psionic minor creation quite a lot more than is normally the case. Assuming you want to combine my two suggestions, of course.

[Glimbur]

Endurance(Core) and Steadfast Determination(PHB II?) are nice because then you can dump Wis and flex that Con even more.

You can throw feats in to ToB stuff or Binding to get some abilities there.

Ability Focus: Breath Weapon?

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot and such? Probably not necessary as you're making touch attacks with the Incarnate, but that might help the Totemist.

[Godskook]

Wild Hidden Talent: psionic minor creation (one level 1 psionic power at manifester level 1, +2 pp, and the [psionic] subtype, which allows you to take psionic feats and have a psionic focus). Then take several [incarnum] feats and Psicarnum Infusion, which allows you to expend your focus to fill those [incarnum] feats with essentia for 1 round (which lasts all day, according to the [incarnum] feats themselves).

That doesn't work that way.

1.[Incarnum] feats explicitly say that the essentia invested stays invested for 24 hours.

2.Psicarnum Infusion does not invest essentia, and explicitly says you don't gain any new essentia.

[Lycanthromancer]

That doesn't work that way.

1.[Incarnum] feats explicitly say that the essentia invested stays invested for 24 hours.

2.Psicarnum Infusion does not invest essentia, and explicitly says you don't gain any new essentia.

It says you don't get bonus essentia, but it does say that the receptacle is treated as though essentia has been invested; I take this to mean that you can't pull the phantom essentia out of the feat at the end of the 24 hr duration.

[Godskook]

It says you don't get bonus essentia, but it does say that the receptacle is treated as though essentia has been invested; I take this to mean that you can't pull the phantom essentia out of the feat at the end of the 24 hr duration.

There is no 'phantom essentia'. It says "As if", as in, "Not actually". The [Incarnum] feats don't tell you what happens in hypothetical situations, only in 'actual' situations, and Psicarnum Infusion never presents an 'actual', just a hypothetical. No essentia is being invested, so it can not 'remain' invested.

If you wanted to 'break' essentia supply with RAW cheese, the [Incarnum] feat idea was solid, but you need a source of actual essentia, such as a L2 wand of Soul Boon.

[Person_Man]

Note that by RAW, Soulspark Familiar does not work with Share Soulmeld, because the Soulspark Familiar is not technically a Familiar or Animal Companion that you can Share Spells with. It's just a Soulspark that you summon and can improve. However, what you describe doing is a common house rule (which I allow in my games as well).

Also, I've done the Incarnate Dissolving Spittle thing, and you should be warned that it gets VERY boring after a few combats. So be prepared to switch to something else, or as a middle ground you could fight in melee while your familiar blasts away like a shoulder cannon.

[Lycanthromancer]

I have a shaper/constructor with a couple of Shape Soulmeld feats (shedu crown and phase cloak) and psionic open chakra, and once I finished off constructor I was planning on taking Practiced Manifester and Azure Talent (replacing the two Shape Soulmelds via psychic reformation), two levels in totemist (for the totem chakra), then hit the soul manifester.

It's suboptimal, sure, but it seems like canned awesome anyway.

Any thoughts?

[Indon]

Incarnum feats increase your Essentia.

Don't even bother ever investing essentia into them, soulmelds are almost always better. Get Incarnum feats so you can have more essentia for Soulmelds. Then get Heart of Incarnum because you can and you probably have like 10 Incarnum feats by now.

Edit: I guess I should clarify how Incarnum feats work.

Incarnum feats do two things:

1.Gives your character an incarnum-fueled capability, kinda like a soulmeld. Like a soulmeld, this capability does not require any Essentia to be invested into it.
2.Gives you 1 point of Essentia. (and 2 in one case)

Don't use the first part. The second part's the awesome one. Even Azure Toughness is awesome because it grants a point of Essentia.

[Person_Man]

I have a shaper/constructor with a couple of Shape Soulmeld feats (shedu crown and phase cloak) and psionic open chakra, and once I finished off constructor I was planning on taking Practiced Manifester and Azure Talent (replacing the two Shape Soulmelds via psychic reformation), two levels in totemist (for the totem chakra), then hit the soul manifester.

It's suboptimal, sure, but it seems like canned awesome anyway.

Any thoughts?

Soul Manifester is actually quite awesome. The only issues are piss poor BAB, the lack of Expanded Essentia Capacity, and that there's really no where to go above ECL 16. But these issues can be resolved with creative tactics.

[Lycanthromancer]

Soul Manifester is actually quite awesome. The only issues are piss poor BAB, the lack of Expanded Essentia Capacity, and that there's really no where to go above ECL 16. But these issues can be resolved with creative tactics.

I was mostly going to combine with metamorphosis, and use passive defensive boosts and unusual options that are difficult to get outside of incarnum (such as the aforementioned shedu crown and phase cloak).

I can get away with having a low class level in totemist due to having access to psionic open chakra to bind soulmelds way above my meldshaper level. Due to manifester level boosts I can access chakras before the meldshaping classes do.

Gotta love psionics.

[Draz74]

Don't even bother ever investing essentia into them except temporary essentia via Psycarnum Infusion, soulmelds are almost always better. Get Incarnum feats so you can have more essentia for Soulmelds. Then get Heart of Incarnum because you can and you probably have like 10 Incarnum feats by now.

Fixed that for you.

(And this works even if you don't use Lycanthromancer's cheesy rules lawyering to say that the benefits last all day.)

[balistafreak]

After poring through my books, you will excuse me when I decide to avoid dipping into psionics for these two characters. I'm already playing two characters because I thought one would be too simple to play - like PersonMan said, the whole Dissolving Spittle/Shouldercannon thing is good, but simplistic, even when you combine it with flying and a small healbot. That's why you bring in the other character to keep yourself amused. If I wanted to make one complex character, I'd have already put psionics onto him. Putting psionics onto one of them, much less both, would probably earn me the "are you done playing with yourself" looks that I hate so very much.

(And I was quite surprised to find that Soulspark Familiar was not in fact a, well, familiar. It's one of those assumptions that most would simply make... and one I hope that the DM won't notice... it's hardly broken, even so.)

Using Item Familiar on your own plating (Dragonborn Warforged lose their slam, unfortunately, along with their composite plating and fortification) sounds like a cool idea, but that does have the problem of stretching the definition of "no possessions". I'll look up item familiars and see if I think the benefits are worth the rules stretch. It does suck that I'll have to use a feat on nothing but retrieving the plating again, though.

Endurance and Steadfast Determination = Constitution to Will saves. That means I can dump Wisdom hard, but walking around with a Wisdom of 6 doesn't appeal to me no matter how I slice it, even if I get +5 to Will saves still (total 20 Constitution). I always try to keep mental stats out of the negatives unless I have really good reason, due to roleplay reasons. It's hard to justify coming up with a cunning plan or point out an insight when you have the mental capacities of a cabbage.

I'm not sure if Ability Focus: Breath Weapon is worth it. The main point is to almost-always-auto-Entangle with it - the damage is a bonus. Chances are anyone with Evasion (the only things that can have Entangling Breath pointed at them and have a chance of evading all damage) also has a Reflex save that I'm not beating.

Wait. Fly-by Attack. Does it allow taking a standard action at any point in the flight, or specifically an attack only? (For that matter, does Dissolving Spittle count as an attack or just a standard action that happens to produce an attack roll?)

I sidestepped Incarnum feats because at this level, extra Essentia doesn't actually help that much (gasp!). The Incarnum6 has 6 essentia. Three points into Dissolving Spittle and three points into another meld is basically all that's really needed. Lifebond Vestments and Soulspark Familiar only need essentia when in use. The only real use for essentia then is the Vitality Belt, which honestly was just an afterthought. With 20 Constitution, the Incarnum6 has a pretty high amount of health already.

As for the Totemist2/Incarnum3, five essentia total is generally used with three in the Manticore Belt and two in the Wormtail Belt. This character might benefit from an extra point of essentia or two to put into Sighting Gloves, but frankly I'm honestly out of ideas.

And I've always found Heart of Incarnum to be mostly extraneous - you want extra health, shape a Vitality Belt. If you still need more, something's wrong with you.

I'll do some more digging and see if I can find anything.

[Draz74]

I'm not sure if Ability Focus: Breath Weapon is worth it. The main point is to almost-always-auto-Entangle with it - the damage is a bonus. Chances are anyone with Evasion (the only things that can have Entangling Breath pointed at them and have a chance of evading all damage) also has a Reflex save that I'm not beating.

Eh. With your Constitution, you just might beat those Evasion folks' saves. Besides, there's monsters with Resistances to consider -- a successful save could well mean the difference between "damage" and "no damage" for them. Still, it's not an automatic must-have for a Dragonborn like it is for a Dragonfire Adept, since you'll only be using the breath weapon maybe twice per encounter or less.

Wait. Fly-by Attack. Does it allow taking a standard action at any point in the flight, or specifically an attack only?

Standard action! (It was specifically intended to let Dragons make flyby breath weapon swoops!) One of the many reasons it's so much better than Spring Attack.

(For that matter, does Dissolving Spittle count as an attack or just a standard action that happens to produce an attack roll?)

The latter, but that should be ok if you get Flyby Attack.

[balistafreak]

You say I might be able to beat a Rogue's Reflex save? Alright, then, I'm game. Let's contemplate.

With 16 base Constitution, both characters have 20 modified Constitution. This is a +5 modifier. The other factor of the save is half the user's HD. This is either a +3 for both or only a +2 for the 5 HD cohort, depending if rounding is done "mathematically correct/always up" or "always down", I forget which one applies in D&D. (Embarassing, I know. ) This makes a total Reflex DC of 18/17.

A character that gains evasion generally has a good Reflex save. Assuming a foe within two levels either way, this makes for a base Reflex save of +4 to +6. Adding in anywhere from a +1 to +4 modifier for Dexterity makes a total Reflex save of +5 to +10. Assuming that they don't go whole hog and invest additional feats into saves or something, at worst, they'd need a 13 to avoid harm - at best, an 8.

Pumping the DC with Ability Focus raises these two numbers to 15 and 10. A 50% chance to still blast the supposedly-evasive level equivalent Rogue? I suppose that certainly is worth the feat.

Now each of the characters still has one more feat to go. While I'm definitely going towards Flyby Attack (because it's bloody awesome) I'm eyeing Dragon Wings as well, because they have to be taken at 1st level. However, I have no clue about how relevant it would be.

See, I'm not sure how the rules on propelling oneself upward with Airstep Sandals and then using Dragon Wings to glide around would work. It seems like it could potentially avert the need to make a strange reading for Airstep Sandals, and it would allow reassigning of essentia for long mid-air combats - let your Dragon Wings glide while you redirect essentia to the healbot or something.

Also, one extra Exalted feat for the Incarnum6. I'm staring at the list, banging my head for anything useful. The best I can think of is Touch of Golden Ice - does a breath weapon count as a natural attack? Because breathing poison while you breath elements is awesome.

Sup dawg, herd you like debuffs, so we put some poison in your breath so you can Fortitude save while you Reflex save.

Thoughts?

[Divide by Zero]

The best I can think of is Touch of Golden Ice - does a breath weapon count as a natural attack? Because breathing poison while you breath elements is awesome.

Unfortunately, no - it's a special attack, not a natural weapon.

[Pluto]

This is a thread title I honestly never expected to see.

[Indon]

And I've always found Heart of Incarnum to be mostly extraneous - you want extra health, shape a Vitality Belt. If you still need more, something's wrong with you.

Well, obviously that thing is that you don't have enough health!

[Person_Man]

Endurance and Steadfast Determination = Constitution to Will saves. That means I can dump Wisdom hard, but walking around with a Wisdom of 6 doesn't appeal to me no matter how I slice it, even if I get +5 to Will saves still (total 20 Constitution). I always try to keep mental stats out of the negatives unless I have really good reason, due to roleplay reasons. It's hard to justify coming up with a cunning plan or point out an insight when you have the mental capacities of a cabbage.

Note that Incarnate soulmelds have a Save DC of 10 + Wis mod + essentia invested. This isn't a problem for most soulmelds (including Dissolving Spittle), but I agree with you that you shouldn't dump Wis entirely for the Incarnate.

Wait. Fly-by Attack. Does it allow taking a standard action at any point in the flight, or specifically an attack only? (For that matter, does Dissolving Spittle count as an attack or just a standard action that happens to produce an attack roll?)

Yes, Fly-By Attack lets you use a Standard Action at any point during your movement. And yes, Dissolving Spittle is a Standard Action. But your feats do not apply to your Soulspark Familiar, which IIRC needs to stay within 5 ft to gain the benefits of Share Soulmeld. So you may have difficulty pulling this particular combo off.

[Fax Celestis]

Recommendation: bomb a bunch of your free feats into Shape Soulmeld to pick up cross-class soulmelds (particularly, Astral Vambraces from the Mind's Eye article linked above, Dragon Mantle from Dragon Magic). Those you don't pick up, try spending on metabreath feats. You're already dealing with word vagueness, why not talk your DM into recognizing that the incarnum breath weapons are a 0-round recharge time, so metabreath feats should make them 0+x rounds?