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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    DragoonWraith's Avatar

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by okpokalypse View Post
    Meh. Having a 13-level Cleric progression by L17 MORE than makes up for the 3-level delay.
    It really doesn't. You're still quite powerful, but Wizard 20 is much more so.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoonWraith View Post
    It really doesn't. You're still quite powerful, but Wizard 20 is much more so.
    Let's look at this:

    Raw power at level 20.

    Wizard 3 / Archivist 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Wizard + 6

    Now, you can be either:
    Wizard 20

    or

    Wizard 19 / Archivist 11

    The latter is better.

    without EE:

    Wizard 17 / Archivist 13

    That is better than most wizard 20 builds, just due to the added versatility combos.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixRivers View Post
    Let's look at this:

    Raw power at level 20.

    Wizard 3 / Archivist 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Wizard + 6

    Now, you can be either:
    Wizard 20

    or

    Wizard 19 / Archivist 11

    The latter is better.

    without EE:

    Wizard 17 / Archivist 13

    That is better than most wizard 20 builds, just due to the added versatility combos.
    This is true, but Wizard 2/Master Specialist X/Incantatrix Y/Whatever else floats your boat Z is still better than effective Wizard 17/Archivist 13. Although, to be fair, effective Wizard 17/Archivist 13 is pretty awesome, as you can basically afford to leave slots open for niche spells once you hit about ECL 10, earlier with Wizard 3/Archivist 1 entry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    This is true, but Wizard 2/Master Specialist X/Incantatrix Y/Whatever else floats your boat Z is still better than effective Wizard 17/Archivist 13.
    I like that you use Incantatrix as a measuring stick.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixRivers View Post
    Wizard 3 / Archivist 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Wizard + 6
    I'm missing something. What feat/feature lets the archivist qualify at 1 instead of 3 ?
    .
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    Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens

    Oh, and DFTBA.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pluto View Post
    I like that you use Incantatrix as a measuring stick.
    Hey, even a meter stick can measure out a kilometer given enough time!

    To be fair, I was going to use Malconvoker initially, but that seemed a bit specialized for what I was going for.

    Quote Originally Posted by gbprime View Post
    I'm missing something. What feat/feature lets the archivist qualify at 1 instead of 3 ?
    Sanctum Spell will get you there.
    Last edited by Thrice Dead Cat; 2010-05-04 at 12:10 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixRivers View Post
    {snip}
    He specified Cleric 3/Wizard 3 entry. My point, I believe, stands.

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    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Theurge 10/Archivist 4 would be better (IMHO) than taking Wizard 4 for the last levels. For the simple fact that the Archivist gets Cleric & Druid spells... and can even get a few Wizard spells based off Cleric Domains!

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    If your character's been keeping pace with the party well so far, then Mystic Theurge might make you more powerful than the rest of the party, because it is a significant increase in power compared to multiclass Wizard/Cleric.

    If you're in the middle of the pack, you might turn out at the front. If you're at the front, you could end up substantially more powerful than the group. If you're lagging a bit, the PrC will help you keep up.

    Talk with your DM and base your decision on how you're shaping up compared to the rest of the party, and how you're likely to continue shaping up as the game progresses.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    If your character's been keeping pace with the party well so far, then Mystic Theurge might make you more powerful than the rest of the party, because it is a significant increase in power compared to multiclass Wizard/Cleric.

    If you're in the middle of the pack, you might turn out at the front. If you're at the front, you could end up substantially more powerful than the group. If you're lagging a bit, the PrC will help you keep up.

    Talk with your DM and base your decision on how you're shaping up compared to the rest of the party, and how you're likely to continue shaping up as the game progresses.
    Actually, if he's been keeping pace, as he levels and the challenges increase, he should remain at that pace. Unless the campaign has a large focus on endurance, he should still remain at roughly his current strength with both multitasking on being a wizard and aiding his comrades post combat. The action economy will prevent most MTs from dropping their slightly larger pool of spells in the same amount of time as a straight wizard or cleric.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


    Winner of Junkyard Wars 31.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixRivers View Post
    That is better than most wizard 20 builds, just due to the added versatility combos.
    He said Cleric, not Archivist.

    To benefit from those 13 levels of Cleric, you need at least 16 Wis to gain access to the 6th-level spells... then you need at least 19 Int for your Wizard side.

    This necessitates either high point-buy, good stat rolls, or good gear... all of which a single-class Wizard could put to better use.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrice Dead Cat View Post
    Actually, if he's been keeping pace, as he levels and the challenges increase, he should remain at that pace. Unless the campaign has a large focus on endurance, he should still remain at roughly his current strength with both multitasking on being a wizard and aiding his comrades post combat. The action economy will prevent most MTs from dropping their slightly larger pool of spells in the same amount of time as a straight wizard or cleric.
    True, but we're not comparing MT with straight Wizard or Cleric. We're comparing it with Wizard/Cleric.

    MT is more powerful than Wizard/Cleric because it gets access to higher-level spells. It's not at the same rate as the pure, extremely potentially powerful Wizard or Cleric classes get it, but it's at a good rate.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Indon View Post
    True, but we're not comparing MT with straight Wizard or Cleric. We're comparing it with Wizard/Cleric.

    MT is more powerful than Wizard/Cleric because it gets access to higher-level spells. It's not at the same rate as the pure, extremely potentially powerful Wizard or Cleric classes get it, but it's at a good rate.
    Yes, but how do both MT and Wizard/Cleric compare to the party in which said character exists? I was not arguing that MT wasn't more powerful than alternating wizard/cleric, but rather that using MT was not going to have any more of an impact on the overall party balance than just either being a straight X caster or however powerful his character currently is in relation to the rest of the party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    "See these cookies? Note how while good they taste sort of bland. Now try these, they're the same cookies but with chocolate chips added. Notice how with the second batch we expended slightly more ingredients but dramatically enhanced the flavor? That's metamagic."
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Seriously, can we kill this misconception now? A wizard is never late, nor is he early. He shops for precisely what he means to.


    Winner of Junkyard Wars 31.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    As someone who recently made a character with the intent of playing a Mystic Theurge, I have to say that I'm definitely enjoying the various thoughts.

    My take on the issue: I've been loving it so far, even though I've not quite qualified for it yet.

    I do have a question for the other readers, though: when you take a class that lets you advance in spells from a previous class, is there any particular reason why such classes can't be stackable? I've been looking around for a reason for why that shouldn't work, and I've been inviting my DM to look around for a reason for why it shouldn' work (sadly, we both have a habit of missing key sentences in the middle of rule texts so that we get big pictures but not finer details).

    Because what I'd like to do is after getting Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1 is look around at some other classes like the Magical Trickster from Complete Scoundrel or the Virtuoso from Song & Silence (my DM lets us use 3.0 books in 3.5 if we can access them.) The downside is that it'd make me drop down not 3 but 4 levels. The upside is that the non-spell benefits of those other classes could start to make up for it (the Magical Trickster's ability to spontaneously use a metamagic feat once per day can help overcome some of those problems since you don't need to prepare higher-level spell slots with it.)

    But, again, this only works as long as I don't find a reason for why those stack, and I'm almost positive that there *should* be a reason for why it stacks.

    Either way, though, considering the story in the game, I've been loving the progression to work my way up to the Theurge. The character's RP really makes it fit.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Prestige Classes that offer "+1 to existing (arcane/divine/either) spellcasting class" do not have their own spellcasting progression. They therefore are not eligible targets for other Prestige Classes that offer the same. No, you cannot be Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1/Whatever X and continue dual-progression.

    Would be interesting if you could. Worth it? Certainly. Overpowered? I'm not so sure...

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Afgncaap5 View Post
    I do have a question for the other readers, though: when you take a class that lets you advance in spells from a previous class, is there any particular reason why such classes can't be stackable? I've been looking around for a reason for why that shouldn't work, and I've been inviting my DM to look around for a reason for why it shouldn' work (sadly, we both have a habit of missing key sentences in the middle of rule texts so that we get big pictures but not finer details).
    As DW said, PrCs like Mystic Theurge and Archmage do not have a spellcasting progression - they only continue that of a base class.

    A PrC with a casting progression is one that gets spells on its own - like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    MT is more powerful than Wizard/Cleric because it gets access to higher-level spells.
    I thought we already established that a multiclassed spellcaster was utter rubbish and no one would ever enter it if not for the existence of dual-caster prcs such as mystic theurge?

    So if MT did not exist, the problem could be worse, because everyone would then go pure spellcaster...

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Well OP, based on your post it appears the situation is that your DM suggested out-of-the-box Mystic Theurge, and you want the d6 HD since it seems underpowered to you. However, it seemed overpowered to your DM and another player and you got into a bit of an argument.

    So the DM was okay with you taking Theurge. Then you should take it! You'll end up much, much more effective with levels in it, even without a d6 HD. Seriously, it's totally worth it now. Theurge is normally underpowered, but as a Wizard 4/Cleric 3 you are terribly underpowered, so this should get you back on par. A d6 hitdie would be nice, but honestly that wouldn't "fix" the class. Armored casting (light, small shields, and medium armor at 10th) would be a good start, as would continued turn and familiar progression. But if your DM thinks Theurge is already too good and is against homebrew and other sources, this is your best bet.

    Unless you want to just keep taking wizard levels, and use your 3 Cleric levels to heal people (probably with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and a few Cure Moderate Wounds at the 2nd level slot). But at this point, Wizard 17/Cleric 3 is worse than Wizard 7/Cleric3/Theurge 10: the second build offers you 13th level divine casting and 7th level cleric spells so you an actually prepare Heal. All you lose for this incredible boon is two wizard bonus feats; in core only this is an amazing trade.

    So yeah, if your DM is still okay with it, take Theurge and never look back.

    Out of curiosity, what is the rest of your party? Core only, rogue, and what? Fighter and Ranger or something?
    Last edited by Hawk7915; 2010-05-04 at 04:39 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    I had a mystic theurge that I played and absolutely loved. We had a full wiz in the party, but she was a blaster, and we were a pretty good level (level 12 or 13 I think?)

    The best part of being a MT wasn't the high level spells I had. It was the fact that I was literally prepared for anything the DM threw at us, and was able to get buffs from all over the place (we used lots of books) that stacked. We had a 15 round major boss battle, and every single round, I cast 1-2 spells (go Divine Quicken! I think that's what it was called, where you give up turning attempts for metamagic)

    Individually, I was pathetic, sure, if someone hit me (not likely, being as I was invis and all sorts of other please-don't-hit-me spells) I'd go splat in a heartbeat, sure I couldn't deal damage or whatever. But you need an unusual spell? I'm your woman!

    By the time that boss battle was over (it was a campaign ender, it was Supposed to kill us) the sheer number of buffs and situationally advantageous magic that was flying around put us well above par. We pwned this guy that was 6 CRs over us
    Yay Pathfinder! Boo on 4th Ed.

    Awesome Post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycar View Post
    "To play a fighter is to play the game.
    To play a wizard is to understand the rules.
    To understand the rules, and play a fighter, is to understand the game."

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by rubycona View Post
    We had a 15 round major boss battle
    I think that's the deal. I've never seen an encounter that long except for high-level caster attrition battles, so then the MT's superior spells per day actually start to matter.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Divide by Zero View Post
    I think that's the deal. I've never seen an encounter that long except for high-level caster attrition battles, so then the MT's superior spells per day actually start to matter.
    More spells, yes - but they have shorter durations (lower CL), so it's a wash.

    He also has weaker guns to bring to the fight, and lower save DCs due to MADness - either of which can actually contribute to the fight taking longer.

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    Default Re: [3.5] What do you think of Mystic Theurge?

    Actually, the fight took that long because it was a sequential summon sort of thing. Every time we killed 1, the next in the sequence was summoned the following round, at the start of the initiative, which typically gave us a couple of actions ahead of time. It was... I can't quite recall, I think 6 battles in a row, all ascending CR, ending with the last one 6 over us? A campaign ender, it was meant as a test to see how powerful we were, and we were supposed to die XD

    As far as my CL being lower, I had practiced spellcaster (both of them, for wiz and clr, bringing my CL up to par). As far as MAD, we had generous point buy, so I was fine.

    I'd recently traded in my monk (with Loads of houserules to bring up to par) for the MT, and if I still had the monk, we'd have been horribly owned. All of us contributed majorly. We knew approximately what we were going to be facing, so I had all my bazillion spells prepared for that kind of fight, so did the wiz, and during the course of the battle, I ate through all but a few, I think maybe 3-4 left. Wiz used less spells, partially because of the divine quickening I was doing, and partially because she kept holding her spells for opportune moments, leaving the buffing/controlling to me. The druid did well, too, and damn, was the fighter-archer a bloody christmas tree XD

    But man, did we ever burn our items there. It was a crazy epic fight, and it felt really nice knowing that they literally couldn't have done it without my MT. I, obviously, couldn't do squat without them, either, but knowing my other chars that I'd played would have ended with us dead... it was cool.

    Edit: A note, give a party of 3 heavy casters (1 full wiz, 1 full druid, 1 MT) and a buffable buddy (go fighter of crazy buff!) several days warning, a recent restock on items, a handful of rounds just before the fight to start the buff-machine going, and they should be able to take out almost anything XD We didn't even lose a single character, not even the animal companion. Nearly so, mind you, but we won!
    Last edited by rubycona; 2010-05-04 at 07:06 PM.
    Yay Pathfinder! Boo on 4th Ed.

    Awesome Post!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycar View Post
    "To play a fighter is to play the game.
    To play a wizard is to understand the rules.
    To understand the rules, and play a fighter, is to understand the game."

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