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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

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    Default [pathfinder] summoner

    I finally get to play a summoner. I'm quite excited as I've always wanted to play a class like this. Anyone have any optimization tips? Or just fun concepts to roleplay out? I'm thinking of making my eidolon a cthulhu-esque creature and my character a Dr. Frankenstein mad scientist type. Always dissecting his kills. The question will be how to disguise his madness in a fun way so he doesn't scare off the party members and town folk...

    The other fun thing I was thinking of was roleplaying out a creepy relationship between him and his eidolon. Make her look something like a succubus. Plus if she looked humanoid there could be all sorts of fun rolepaly shenanigans, like pretending she was a separate member of the party. Of course it'd be even creepier to roleplay out said situation while the eidolon looked cthulhu-esque...

    My other main concern is what should my summoner be doing after he casts his buffs and battlefield control spells? It doesn't seem like he'll have enough spells to be casting every round. Should I invest in archery?

    What would be a fun race? I suppose if I'm small I'd be easier to ride my eidolon. How would that work? I'd still need a ride skill, but I wouldn't need handle animal, right? Cause the eidolon already follows his mental commands.

    I'm also debating on whether bigger is better. Sure having a huge eidolon is great for damage, but that's going to suck when it comes to tight spaces. Doable, but annoying. There's also no way to disguise a huge monstrosity when going into town.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    If you're wanting to take your companion into town then yeah I'd suggest the bipedal form. I've rolled one up to play in an upcoming game myself and I went with quad form and a small sized race to ride it (I suggest gnome). Strictly speaking if you're just going to ride on it's back then you don't need the ride skill. You only need the ride skill if you plan on riding it into combat.

    As for the size thing, yeah I think I'm going to cap mine out at large size and use the points for other things. Once you get the multiattack feat on it, you can really start buffing up it's attacks, adding extra limbs, etc.

    As for what to do when your spells run out... archery isn't a bad idea... maybe nab some tanglefoot bags and flasks of alchemist fire, or try to get creative with your 0-level spells.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Rixx's Avatar

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Giving it Alter Self as a spell-like ability would be good for the "disguised as a succubus" dealie.

  4. - Top - End - #4
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Rixx View Post
    Giving it Alter Self as a spell-like ability would be good for the "disguised as a succubus" dealie.
    It's a shame it's duration is only in minutes per caster level or it would be more useful to hide a strange looking Eidolon when going into town.
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  5. - Top - End - #5
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    Akal Saris's Avatar

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Congrats on getting to play a summoner! I've always wanted to play a summoner or conjurer, but never get the chance to do so past a few levels.

    What books are available, by the way? Who else is in your group? What levels? It can have a big impact on how you build any character.

    Regarding the eidolon: the quadruped with pounce and then as many natural attacks as you can take per level, augmenting them with elemental damage, seems to be the strongest overall build. I definitely like the succubus-type eidolon idea, however.

    Size increases depends on your game - I'd keep it medium if its a dungeon crawl or city game, and go large or huge for a wilderness or sea-based game.

    The summoner's a relatively flexible class, so there's a few options:

    For all builds: Spell Focus (Conj) and Augment Summoning are almost necessities, if the summoner PC in a game I'm running is any indication. Even if you're a melee-focused build, your SLA summons last around long enough and are effective enough to spend these 2 feats, and the sooner the better.

    Spells-focused: Spell Focus (Conj), Augment Summoning to start. Then Extend Spell is good in PF Core, while 3.5 books have nice feats like metamagic spell focus to reduce metamatic spell slot costs (C. Mage), Beckon the frozen to give 1d6 cold damage to your summons (Frostburn), and so on. Improved Initiative would be another good choice.

    Mounted charger: A halfling or gnome with a quadruped, taking mounted combat, ride-by-attack, spirited charge, toughness, improved critical, and then whatever else you like. It would probably be pretty effective, especially since your eidolon gets Pounce easily and follows your orders easily.

    Archer: An elf or wild elf gets bow proficiency, or if starting at higher levels you could be human and buy Bracers of Archery, which give you proficiency in all bows (so you could use a Greatbow for example). I don't think this is all that necessary, since you should have enough SLAs to last the whole day. But then again, having a bow is always a nice back-up.

    Basic equipment: Longspear, morningstar, chain shirt, mithril buckler, rod of quicken spell (lesser and normal), rod of extend spell (lesser and normal)

    3.5 equipment: Ring of Mighty Summons (C. Mage), holy symbol of nature (C. Champion)

    Sample level 7 eidolon:
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    Lvl 7 eidolon: 6HD, 3 feats, +6 AC, +3 str/dex, max attacks 4, 10 EP, evasion, darkvision, share spells, devotion, stat increase

    Quadruped
    Str: 26
    Dex: 15
    Con: 17
    Int: 7
    Wis: 10
    Cha: 11
    Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (Claws)
    Evolutions: Claws (1ep), pounce (1ep), energy attacks (2ep), gore (2ep), large (4ep)

    Attacks: Bite +13 1d8+8+1d6, 2 Claws +13 1d8+8+1d6 ea, Gore +13 1d8+8+1d6. Total 4d8+4d6+32, average 60 damage per round, including a charge.

    When under effects of Enlarge Person and Bull's strength, becomes: Bite +15 2d6+11+1d6, 2 Claws +15 2d6+11+1d6 ea, Gore +15 2d6+11+1d6. Total 12d6+44, average 80 damage per round, including a charge.

    AC: 21 (+10 natural, -1 size, +2 dex)
    Fort: +8
    Ref: +7
    Will: +2 (+6 against enchantments)
    HP: 63 (70 if eidolon counts as a favored class)

    At 8th: 5 attacks, so claw x2, claw x2, bite -
    Evolutions: Claws (1ep), pounce (1ep), rend (2ep), extra limbs (2ep), claws (1ep), large (4ep)
    Handbooks: (Hosted on the new MixMax forums)
    [3.5] The Poison Handbook
    [3.5] (New) Master of Shrouds Handbook
    [3.5 Base Class] Healer's Handbook

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    Thanks to Strategos and Jumilk for the awesome Iron Chef trophies!

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    I'm still waiting to hear the specifics of the game.

    Does augment summoning apply to eidolons?

    Oh man, mounted combat is starting to sound nice. So I wonder which would take precedence? Flyby attack, or ride by attack? Assuming I'm riding a flying mount.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Jarian's Avatar

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    My other main concern is what should my summoner be doing after he casts his buffs and battlefield control spells? It doesn't seem like he'll have enough spells to be casting every round. Should I invest in archery?
    Eggshell grenades from Oriental Adventures can be fun, if you don't mind the short range increment.

    Pepper will render a struck opponent helpless for one round. Dust will blind for 1d4 rounds on a hit, or everything in a 5-ft splash (DC 10 save, ick, but better than nothing) on a miss.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    randomhero00's Avatar

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    also how would the rideby/flyby attacks work? With pounce I'd get a full attack, and then be able to continue moving, wouldn't I?

    but would I as the mounted rider also get a full attack on a pounce?
    Last edited by randomhero00; 2010-05-04 at 06:19 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    also how would the rideby/flyby attacks work? With pounce I'd get a full attack, and then be able to continue moving, wouldn't I?

    but would I as the mounted rider also get a full attack on a pounce?
    Flyby Attack works for the Mount, not the Rider. Rider would need Rideby Attack.

    Pounce works for the Mount, not the Rider. Rider would need his own Pounce.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    pardon the ignorance, but where is this class located?

  11. - Top - End - #11
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    I'm still waiting to hear the specifics of the game.

    Does augment summoning apply to eidolons?
    According to the official FAQ...

    Q: Does the feat Augment Summoning affect Eidolon during the summon like other spell-like abilities?
    A: (Jason Bulmahn 11/30/09) Summoning the eidolon is actually a supernatural ability and is not subject to the Augment Summoning feat.


    However it should work with your class ability to cast Summon Monster.

    Also reading the FAQ I found out that it can speak and understand the same languages of the character.


    Quote Originally Posted by hangedman1984 View Post
    pardon the ignorance, but where is this class located?
    It's from Pathfinder. Much of the game's info can be found HERE.
    Last edited by WildPyre; 2010-05-04 at 07:57 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    randomhero00's Avatar

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    I'm not saying its wrong, but what does the fact that its a SU ability have to do with feats?

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    *shrugs* Augment Summoning states that it effects any summoning spell you cast.

    Your Eidolon summoning isn't casting a summoning spell.
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  14. - Top - End - #14
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    randomhero00's Avatar

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    I guess that makes sense but I always thought of 'spell' as interchangeable with 'magic' and other general descriptors. Plus it also mentions 'summon' which the eidolon is.

  15. - Top - End - #15
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    But by that reasoning Augment Summoning would effect a Paladin's mount and a druid's animal companion. It just doesn't work that way unfortunately.
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  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by randomhero00 View Post
    I'm not saying its wrong, but what does the fact that its a SU ability have to do with feats?
    "In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell"

    Augment summoning works for spells, and because of that rule it works for Sp abilities. Sp abilities act like spells in most ways. Su abilities sometimes produce roughly the same effect as spells, but follow different rules.

    PS. Paladin's mount is Sp, but it also mention "call" ... any sane DM would rule it's a calling effect, not a summoning one (otherwise the mount could be dispelled, and the penalty for dying wouldn't make much sense either).
    Last edited by PinkysBrain; 2010-05-04 at 09:10 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by Akal Saris View Post
    Sample level 7 eidolon:
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    Lvl 7 eidolon: 6HD, 3 feats, +6 AC, +3 str/dex, max attacks 4, 10 EP, evasion, darkvision, share spells, devotion, stat increase

    Quadruped
    Str: 26
    Dex: 15
    Con: 17
    Int: 7
    Wis: 10
    Cha: 11
    Feats: Toughness, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (Claws)
    Evolutions: Claws (1ep), pounce (1ep), energy attacks (2ep), gore (2ep), large (4ep)

    Attacks: Bite +13 1d8+8+1d6, 2 Claws +13 1d8+8+1d6 ea, Gore +13 1d8+8+1d6. Total 4d8+4d6+32, average 60 damage per round, including a charge.

    When under effects of Enlarge Person and Bull's strength, becomes: Bite +15 2d6+11+1d6, 2 Claws +15 2d6+11+1d6 ea, Gore +15 2d6+11+1d6. Total 12d6+44, average 80 damage per round, including a charge.

    AC: 21 (+10 natural, -1 size, +2 dex)
    Fort: +8
    Ref: +7
    Will: +2 (+6 against enchantments)
    HP: 63 (70 if eidolon counts as a favored class)

    At 8th: 5 attacks, so claw x2, claw x2, bite -
    Evolutions: Claws (1ep), pounce (1ep), rend (2ep), extra limbs (2ep), claws (1ep), large (4ep)
    Just noticed one small things with this...

    The Large evolution is only 3 points, not 4... I'd use the extra point for the Improved Damage (claws) evolution. Unless you ment Huge, which is 4 points, but IMHO makes it too cumbersome.
    Last edited by WildPyre; 2010-05-05 at 12:41 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #18
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: [pathfinder] summoner

    Quote Originally Posted by hangedman1984 View Post
    pardon the ignorance, but where is this class located?
    It's from Pathfinder's upcoming Advanced Player's Guide (A.K.A. Pathfinder's PHB II :P), which they put out in a playtest for players.

    Thank goodness the final playtest build fixes a lot of the broken shenanigans that the eidolons USED to be capable of.

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