Uber Generics class creation system.

[glennfrogknight]

A few years ago, a user by the name of Crave created a class point-buy system by the name of Uber Generics. I saw it around 2007, and it looked neat, and I bookmarked it. Fast forward to a few days ago, and I noticed the bookmark and found the topic to be dead. After searching the Internet Archives for a while, I found an archive of the archive of the topic and ripped all the information, and began converting it. Here's the alpha of what will hopefully be the end result.

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AS...1fOTloaGtoMmQy

This system really impressed me to the point that I edited everything into that. The only thing new is it uses the Wild Cohort feat instead of Animal Companion because of the way the system works, I think using that feat as a base makes more sense.

The basics of the system are that at level 1, instead of taking a class like wizard, barbarian or bard, you create a class using the 15 class points you get at the start and play that custom class permanently. You can buy pretty much any ability found in any of the core classes to mix-and-match whatever idea you want.

Questions, comments, corrections, anything is welcome. It'd be cool to one day make a wiki of all of this where uses can submit homebrew content, but that's a little bit beyond my current scope.

[glennfrogknight]

Here's a few sample class ideas. These don't take power feats into mind, but the power feat options aren't usually hard to decide. At the worst you can convert them to normal feats.

Wildling
High Base Attack bonus (3)
d10 hit die (3)
One Save: Fort (1)
Light Combatant (all martial weapons) (1-1=0)
AC bonus when unarmored (1)
Divine Initiate (2)
Wildshape (5)

Fighter/Mage
High Base Attack Bonus (3)
Heavy Combatant (3-1)
Two Save (2)
d10 hit die (3)
Arcane Adept (4)
Skillful (1)

Priest
Divine Master (12)
Medium Combatant (all armor, shields) (2)
d6 hit die (1)

Thief
High Base Attack Bonus (3)
Sneak Attack (5)
Arcane Initiate (2)
Light Combatant (light armor and 5 martial weapons) (1-1)
Expert (5)

Sneaky Wizard
d6 Hit Die (1)
Medium Base Attack Bonus (1)
Two Saves (Ref+Will) (2)
Skillful (1)
AC Bonus when Unarmored (1)
Sneak Attack (5)
Arcane Adept (4)

Dreadnought
High Base Attack Bonus (3)
Two save (Fort+Will) (2)
d12 (4)
Heavy Combatant (3-1)
Skillful (1)
Rage (3)

[Real Sorceror]

I like it. Its much simpler than similar systems, such as Complete Control. CC provided even more customization but required a degree in astro-physics to really grasp.
I've been wanting a system like for Pathfinder but I've already got too much on my plate right now.

[Doc Roc]

And how much is casting worth?

Answer:
Not enough.
4 for arcane adept is ridiculous, and represents a fundamental misapprehension regarding the varying worth of features in actual play.
12 is a little more reasonable, for master, but it's still really unfortunate because pretty much, I'm always going to take that.

Yes, I will take all bad saves to get a wizard with int+4 skills and actual class skills on top of d6 hp and medium BaB.

Also, why is slow fall two points? Justify that to me in a way that doesn't hurt my head, and I will seriously buy you lunch.

[erikun]

This looks a lot like GURPS character creation, except you're building a class rather than a character.

A lot of the power feats have the unusual "X skill at max ranks" requirement. This feels really awkward for any multiclass or prestige class character, as if they don't have the skill as a class skill, they need to spend double skill points to keep up with it.

I disagree with a number of points. The Search skill is so common and basic that it really should be available to everyone from the start, while Use Magic Device really should be a power skill. Smite [Alignment] really isn't worth 3 points, especially not at once per day every five levels.

Wild Shape has the prerequisites "Max ranks in Knowledge nature and Wild Empathy" despite being a class progression, not a power feat.

I feel compelled to point out that this is hardly any class I could imagine - it's more like any combination of class abilities. I could not make a class that only has Wild Shape [Elemental] without either ignoring the basic wild shape ability for 15 levels, or only being capable of using it once a day. On the other hand, I could play a Wizard with the full Lore ability, which is something that I'd really like.

[TheLonelyScribe]

Not exactly advanced critique:

OMG I could totally play the Ultimate battle mage!

Adept in both arcane sorcery and spontaneous inflict divine religion.

High BAB

D10 Hit Die

Reflex Save


Multiple spell wielding, accurate, tough, nimble dealer of DEATH!


On a serious note, this creates characters slightly more powerful than the PHB classes, but that's not a problem if everyone's doing it. I can see this being very fun in an arena-type game pitting players against each other. It's also very easy to homebrew for. Good work!

[glennfrogknight]

Also, why is slow fall two points? Justify that to me in a way that doesn't hurt my head, and I will seriously buy you lunch.

I'll take you up on that. I didn't make this system, and I didn't assign point value to these things. I'll take that lunch, please. (for the record, I'd probably make it a power feat if I'd made it, and I'll probably change it to that when I actually get around to rebalancing the system).

A lot of the point balance comments I realized very (very!) early on, but as I said in the original post, this isn't actually a system I created, but one I found archived and basically dead and hoped to kind of revive.

I think it's a very expansive system, and if there was a lot of homebrew for it that it could turn out very cool. I obviously can't post anything non-SRD, but stuff like Shapeshifter from PHB2, Rage Mage's idea, all of that stuff can become a lot more viable between Power Feats and Progressions.

I agree that full spellcasting is too powerful. In 3.5, it's too powerful. The problem is, if you make it cost 15 class points, literally every caster is going to be identical in terms of class (even if not Power Feats, which are very incomplete) as one another. 3 points isn't a lot to work with, but it gives you a bit of wiggle room to make the class unique in some way or another.

When I was editing this I inevitably had to make a few changes to things. There used to be a d20 hit die (yeah... it also applied restrictions to other things that literally made no sense) and Wild Empathy wasn't gained from ANYTHING but was still required for Wild Shape. I quickly threw it together as a feat and said there you go, at least now it's available and you can take Wild Shape.

I also made it so Initiate-level casting gets 0 level spells, because when you're spending class points, it's not very fun to spend 2 class points and have them literally do nothing for 3 levels, and not even be all that worthwhile later on (unlike Wild Shape).

And I think Arcane Adept fits where it is pretty well. Bards get it, 3/4 BAB, decent saves, decent class features, and they're still considered "weak" (tier 3, if you care for the tier system).

EDIT:

A lot of the power feats have the unusual "X skill at max ranks" requirement. This feels really awkward for any multiclass or prestige class character, as if they don't have the skill as a class skill, they need to spend double skill points to keep up with it.

I believe I made them so that if you have maximum ranks in them for the level you gain your power feat you qualify. Levels 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 20.

And multiclassing/prestige classing isn't supposed to really exist in this. Rather, if there's a PRC you like, you should find some way to fit the abilities into your class at some point value the DM agrees with. You're not supposed to be taking levels in any class but the one you made.

[glennfrogknight]

I'm putting a revised UG document together that has some rebalanced point values and class abilities that the original left out, but the question I have is, I'm allowed to use non-SRD abilities as long as I never actually say how they function, and instead reference you to the book the ability is found in, right?

Something like this:

Shapeshifter
Point Value: Four Points
You gain the Shapeshifting ability (as the Player's Handbook 2's druid variant).

Would there be any problems with linking to stuff like that on this forum?

[Volthawk]

I think that's fine, saying what book the variant's in. Just don't give all the mechanics, I think.

As well, this can make really cool classes. For example:

D12 HD
All good saves
Full BAB
Up to 4th level arcane spells
Up to 4th level divine spells

All for the standard 15 points. Oddly enough, this guy isn't proficient with any armour, but I suppose high health and saves make up for that.

Also, I love how you can make Sorcerer casting based on Wisdom.

[megabyter5]

I think that's fine, saying what book the variant's in. Just don't give all the mechanics, I think.

As well, this can make really cool classes. For example:

D12 HD
All good saves
Full BAB
Up to 4th level arcane spells
Up to 4th level divine spells

All for the standard 15 points. Oddly enough, this guy isn't proficient with any armour, but I suppose high health and saves make up for that.

Also, I love how you can make Sorcerer casting based on Wisdom.

It specifies that you can only have 2/3 between d12 HD, all good saves, and full BAB. So that won't work.

[Volthawk]

It specifies that you can only have 2/3 between d12 HD, all good saves, and full BAB. So that won't work.

Oops, critical reading failure...

[erikun]

And multiclassing/prestige classing isn't supposed to really exist in this. Rather, if there's a PRC you like, you should find some way to fit the abilities into your class at some point value the DM agrees with. You're not supposed to be taking levels in any class but the one you made.

Well that makes it a bit awkward if you can't make the class you want. For example, I don't see how I could replicate the Shadowdancer prestige class very easily through the current options.

There's also the issue of relative balance. I realize that the original designer primarily went through the various classes and assigned points to all their abilities, assuming that each had 15 points total and were all equal. However, several abilities are way off. 6th level wizard spells are far better than just 6th level bard spells, and worth closer to eight points than merely four. Sneak Attack is nowhere as strong as Wild Shape, and it certainly isn't better than your Shapeshifting example.

[glennfrogknight]

Well that makes it a bit awkward if you can't make the class you want. For example, I don't see how I could replicate the Shadowdancer prestige class very easily through the current options.

There's also the issue of relative balance. I realize that the original designer primarily went through the various classes and assigned points to all their abilities, assuming that each had 15 points total and were all equal. However, several abilities are way off. 6th level wizard spells are far better than just 6th level bard spells, and worth closer to eight points than merely four. Sneak Attack is nowhere as strong as Wild Shape, and it certainly isn't better than your Shapeshifting example.

Yes, there's a lot of strange quirks to the system that he had put together. The Revised system I'm putting together re-values a lot of abilities, removes the silly limit of maxed abilities, and various other things.

And remember Adept-level casting doesn't have access to every wizard/sorcerer spell. You only get access to a limited number of schools.

As for specific PRC abilities, the easiest way to do them is simply convert them into power feats.

Side question, can anyone tell me why some topics have PEACH in their title? I don't know what that means.

[Fable Wright]

P.lease
E.valuate
A.nd
C.ritique
H.onestly

[Yuven]

I tried to make the cleric class and ended up with -5 points :P

[glennfrogknight]

Clerics and druids can't really be made with this system. They simply have too many good class mechanics.

[Touchy]

These look very fun, kodos

[glennfrogknight]

Okay, the Revised document can be found here:

http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AS...1fOTloaGtoMmQy

I'm hesitant to make the Adept level casting cost more than 5 points, because it doesn't really get THAT many spells. It's not just a Master-level caster who gets cut off at 6. I think it's less than half as powerful.

If anyone has any suggestions about point costs for anything new/rebalanced, please say them, because a lot of this I'm not really sure how much it should cost. I've never seen Battlecast in action, for example. I have it set so when you get 3rd level spells, you can do 2nd, and 5th, you can do 4th, then 9th you can do 8th. Does that sound about right?

[Volthawk]

Maybe put in Dragon Shaman/Marshall auras and Warlock/DFA Invocations?

[glennfrogknight]

Maybe put in Dragon Shaman/Marshall auras and Warlock/DFA Invocations?

From what I remember, the Dragon Shaman auras were pretty weak. Other than the Vigor aura, they probably would cost less than bardic music + inspire courage, so 2 points is pretty fair for that. Standard Dragon Shaman progression, probably cut the Vigor one out. Even if it's only to 1/2, it's a pretty potent ability for 2 class points.

The marshal auras are a bit better. Looking at him in UG, he's actually probably underbudgeted. Medium BAB (1), Heavy Combatant (3), Two Save (2)... that's about it. Grant Move action looks more like a Power Feat than an actual class progression, so I guess that makes his aura ability worth 9! Realistically, it's probably better around 3 or 4. My gut says 3, because I don't think it's better than Shapeshift and Shapeshift works really well at 4, but I've never played a marshal so I'm not sure how nice the auras are. I know it's a fairly disliked class, but that's probably because it's so weak at anything except auras.

I'm not really sure how to point out the Warlock's Invocations, and I'm not sure what DFA is. I never really had any interest in the Warlock so I'd have to read the entire class to figure out what the invocations cost. Probably more than two, as you can get some pretty nice things out of them from what I've heard. Are they more useful than Shapeshift? Wildshape? Just compare what you get vs what you COULD get, and you should be able to figure out where they go.

[Volthawk]

DFA is Dragonfire Adept. It's from Dragon Magic, and gets some invocations and a breath weapon.

[glennfrogknight]

DFA is Dragonfire Adept. It's from Dragon Magic, and gets some invocations and a breath weapon.

I see.

Thinking about it, the Vigor aura from Dragon Shaman probably isn't that overpowering, given Clerics get it from a feat anyway.

[Theodoxus]

I helped work on the original... and after a lot of number crunching, came to the conclusion that creating an all in one package based on points from 1st level doesn't work.

Even with power feats, a lot of things just don't synergize well. Because of that, I came to the conclusion that additional points would need to be instilled at higher levels, to allow further specialization, but never came up with anything that worked right. I think that was what ultimately doomed the project originally.

If you're wanting to build a basic fighter, rogue or spellcaster, as assumed by UA where the system was derived, it's awesome. To make some kind of crazy wizard/incantrix/incarnum/warlock/knight mega-hybrid... just isn't gonna do it.

And I think that's the point. The power gaming ultra CO crowd realized quickly that they couldn't squeeze this system to get the juice they wanted, and abandoned it. There's already posts in this thread along those lines. If you're one of those types - abandon this idea now, you'll only get frustrated.

However, if you're looking for a system that can generate, with good accuracy, standard fantasy archetypes, this will do wonders for you.

Best of luck keeping it alive - there are a lot of vultures out there looking for fresh meat.

[glennfrogknight]

I helped work on the original... and after a lot of number crunching, came to the conclusion that creating an all in one package based on points from 1st level doesn't work.

Even with power feats, a lot of things just don't synergize well. Because of that, I came to the conclusion that additional points would need to be instilled at higher levels, to allow further specialization, but never came up with anything that worked right. I think that was what ultimately doomed the project originally.

If you're wanting to build a basic fighter, rogue or spellcaster, as assumed by UA where the system was derived, it's awesome. To make some kind of crazy wizard/incantrix/incarnum/warlock/knight mega-hybrid... just isn't gonna do it.

And I think that's the point. The power gaming ultra CO crowd realized quickly that they couldn't squeeze this system to get the juice they wanted, and abandoned it. There's already posts in this thread along those lines. If you're one of those types - abandon this idea now, you'll only get frustrated.

However, if you're looking for a system that can generate, with good accuracy, standard fantasy archetypes, this will do wonders for you.

Best of luck keeping it alive - there are a lot of vultures out there looking for fresh meat.

The original didn't even have power feats. They were my way of doing exactly what you said; giving more class points as you level. They just don't actually give class points.

[mikebuffan]

Just in case you are still monitoring this thread, I am also trying to revamp the UberGenerics class system.
There are several gaping holes in the original UberGenerics that were never addressed, and also in your re-vamped version as well.
A friend and I are about 1/3 of the way done with giving this a major overhaul, and would appreciate any feedback (or helpful comments) you might have.