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Thread: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
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2010-05-04, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5] Psionic Gish help
So I'm building an evil character for a open-world styled game, I have the intents of bring him to level 20, but I'm feeling this is... underwhelming, I can't put my finger on it, it might be because I'm ending with what a cleric gets for bab, or it might be that I can't squeeze in 9th level powers, without going below cleric bab. I can't put my finger on what I'm doing wrong, any suggestions? Also one of the first times I planned out the build from the beginning, so I think I'm doing alright for a below average optimizer.
Spoiler
Race: Human
32-pointbuy
1: Warblade* Track, bonus: ???, Flaw: ???, Flaw: ???
2: Warblade*
3: Egoist ???
4: Egoist +1 int
5: Egoist
6: Egoist Practiced Manifester
7: Slayer
8: Slayer +1 int
9: Slayer
10: Slayer
11: Slayer
12: Slayer ??? +1 int
13: Slayer
14: Slayer
15: Slayer ???
16: Slayer +1 int
17: Egoist
18: Egoist ???
19: Egoist
20: Egoist +1 int
*Willing to drop
Hitpoints: 186(we use a static, basically first level is full, rest is -2(except for d4s, then it's -1)
Powers: Don't know yet, but I get all 8th level powers known.
Feats: No idea here, besides what I need to qualify, ofcourse.
Manuevers+Stances: No idea
Starting Stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 16
Wis: 8
Cha: 8
Last edited by Touchy; 2010-05-04 at 04:50 PM.
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2010-05-04, 03:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Do you have access to Complete Psionic?
Anarchic Initiate and the Ardent make this sort of character work much more smoothly.
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2010-05-04, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Your only hope for 9th-level powers while losing that many ML is to go with Ardent instead of Egoist. On the bright side, this should also solve your BAB issue, because Ardents are 3/4 instead of 1/2.
You can make an Ardent with all the relevant powers of an Egoist by customizing your mantles. Do you have CPsi?
EDIT: Ninja'd on my questionLast edited by Optimystik; 2010-05-04 at 03:11 PM.
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2010-05-04, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Do not have Complete Psionics, unfortunately.
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2010-05-04, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
I wouldn't worry too much about BA. You have Metamorphosis and offensive manifesting, both of which take a lot of the pressure off.
Crusader 1/Egoist 6/Slayer 10/Egoist 3 should be perfectly playable on its own.
(Crusader and Vigor will go a long way in keeping you alive at low levels.)
Elocator is a heavy feat investment and a manifester level for 1 point of BA. I'd skip it.
Lords of Madness and Races of Stone also have some very good Psigish PrC's. I prefer both of them (Sanctified Mind and Iron Mind, respectively) to the Slayer in most situations.
There's also some good stuff in the Mind's Eye article series. The Sangehirn could be especially useful (3/4 BA, defensive abilities, 9/10 manifesting).Last edited by Pluto; 2010-05-04 at 03:32 PM.
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2010-05-04, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Any reason why Egoist and not Wilder? Wilders tend to make much better gishes than Psions thanks to the 3/4 BAB, d6 rather than d4, Elude Touch and Surging Euphoria.
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2010-05-04, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
I've always thought wilders were a bit underwhelming, plus the lack of powers, and Greater metamorphosis would just be awesome.
Sorry, I am only using warblade because it's on the list of all the free things wotc posted, someone linked me to the maneuvers awhile back. The only things I have is the SRD, magic of the incarnum, and the spell compendium.
I'll also go check out the Sangehirn.Nevermind, that manifester level loss is immediate, I guess I'll continue egoist, then.Last edited by Touchy; 2010-05-04 at 04:34 PM.
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2010-05-05, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Gish builds should use Gish base classes that progress to a Gish PrC. Psion is NOT a Gish and IMO a poor choice. The ideal psi-Gish class would be ardent since they lose no 9th level powers with practised manifester.
Since you can't use ardent I'd say Wilder is the way to go. It has 3/4 BAB, bonuse to saves, attack, and damage with surging euphoria and more ML than psion.
Psion/elocater is a better Gish IMO than a warblade/psion/slayer. With opptunistic strike, your attack and damage benefits much more full BAB. If you have astral construct you will always have a flanking buddy and get that bonus. Scorn earth is awesome as well.
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2010-05-05, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Thats exactly why I was going to take a level in elocater, Scorn earth= Awesome.
The reason I'm taking two levels in Warblade is so my reflex saves don't suck, and a stance is always nice, the second level also grants me faster bab access to slayer.There is also reason I took egoist, because I gain one 9th level power, that power is Greater metamorphosis, I can turn into ANY 20 HD and under creature, and gain all but spell-like abilities of it. I keep all extraordinary abilities and spell-like abilities(And by extension, Psionic abilities) and can still kick some ass outside of said form. And slayer... is for bab, one manifester level loss but full bab is nice for me, if I had access to the better gish PrCs I would use them.
But I'm seeing elocater is awesome, looking at the class I'm seeing many perks in it, going to go do some research to see if your correct on that.
Also practiced manifester doesn't work like that, you gain the benefits of up to 5 additional manifester levels, for purposes besides power points or powers known.Last edited by Touchy; 2010-05-05 at 06:34 PM.
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2010-05-05, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-05, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Last edited by Touchy; 2010-05-05 at 06:51 PM.
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2010-05-05, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-05-05, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Last edited by Touchy; 2010-05-05 at 06:55 PM.
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2010-05-05, 06:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Ardents can learn any powers that they can legally manifest. That means that with Practiced Manifester, you only need 13 Ardent levels to learn a level 9 power.
And this is why I am refusing to go wilder.Last edited by Pluto; 2010-05-05 at 07:01 PM.
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2010-05-05, 07:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
given that elocater is feat intensive I would say dipping into it just for scorn earth is silly. It gives you teleport and planeshift at a reduced cost, huge bonus on your attack and damage (+6 on each attack is very noticable), good will and reflex saves, and dimension door as a PLA. It's a shame that elcoater is reduced to scorn earth when it acutally has a lot going for it.
I personally don't think slayer is all that great. A straight ardent or wilder is a far better Gish than psion/slayer. Which was the point of my post. If you are going for greater metamorph why even worry about reflex saves?
Also practiced manifester doesn't work like that, you gain the benefits of up to 5 additional manifester levels, for purposes besides power points or powers known.
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2010-05-05, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
On the contrary; if it's one thing Wilders are good at, it's offense. Remember that Wild Surge not only raises your ML cap, it pays for your augments for free.
Mantled Wilder is a trap. You gain access to powers you might not otherwise have, but have to use your own Powers Known to take them (similar to sorcerers with Rainbow Servant.) And you lose Elude Touch, which will be one of your most valuable gish abilities.
Educated Wilder, however, is your saving grace. You trade a crap class feature (Volatile Mind) for a great one (Expanded Knowledge.) Wilder 5/Slayer 7/Wilder +8 nets you 3 free powers known - one up to 2nd-level, one up to 7th, and one up to 8th.
But I agree with Samb - Slayer is underwhelming. There's a tendency among psionics players to want to settle for any PrC so long as it has enough manifester levels, without looking at whether the class features will actually make a difference in play. Seriously, it protects my brain from being eaten? It doesn't get much more niche than that.
Better to go with Sanctified Mind if you really want the BAB.Last edited by Optimystik; 2010-05-05 at 07:23 PM.
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2010-05-05, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
I actually do have access to the feats in Complete psionics. Basically I found a site with access to about every feat published. Also we don't have one DM, this is a literal open-world game, we have multiple DMs, and all the DMs also have PCs for when they play, it's online as well. I can accept that you probably didn't know that, I should of mentioned it.
Also the game allows all books, but we are under gentlemen's agreement to not break the game, the thing is I do not have access to that specific book, sans the feats.Last edited by Touchy; 2010-05-05 at 07:25 PM.
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2010-05-05, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
I'm not sure what this means. Do you mean that a Wilder gish should spend half his career blasting? That doesn't leave much room for the fighting aspect of the role.
Or is there a way to channel powers?
Or any good offensive buffs that I'm overlooking?
(Offensive Precognition and Prescience seem to be the extent of the list. Neither seems to catch a Wilder up to a featureless full BA class until past level 10.)
I'd assume feats are going to be generalized requirements for Wilders and fighting-types like Power Attack, Psicrystal Affinity, Link Power, Psionic Meditation and Quick Recovery. I'd assume Vigor and Share pain and some 1 pp Swift power are going to eat up powers known. There just don't seem to be many resources left to invest in blasting.
...I'm still not seeing how this works without expanding the spell list with ACF's.Last edited by Pluto; 2010-05-05 at 07:56 PM.
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2010-05-05, 07:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
wilder is not an intuitive class to use. But it is very balenced and with some work it can be an almost broken Gish. Before metamorph you wil be using wild surged PVS combo (psicrystal, vigor, share pain) and even tanking since your HP will be well above (almost double) that of a psion or psywar.
Surge often to take advantage of euphoria. The boost it provides makes your attack and damage on par with a fighter. At level nine you can take schism or metamorphosis (or both if you go educated). Schism would be my choice since it let's you surge safely while full attacking.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=4368.0
wilder handbook by yours truly.
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2010-05-05, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-05, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
So I'm not crazy, thinking that would be a rough spot.
At level nine you can take schism or metamorphosis (or both if you go educated). Schism would be my choice since it let's you surge safely while full attacking.
But Wilders don't get their first 5th level power until ECL 10. Wouldn't that rule out Expanded Knowledge (4th level power) until the level 12 feat?
I want Expanded Knowledge to work that way*, especially for my Psychic Warriors, but I'm having a hard time finding any rules to support it.
*(counting a manifester as 'able to manifest' powers that cost up to their ML, regardless of whether or not they actually have powers of that level that they can manifest)Last edited by Pluto; 2010-05-05 at 08:31 PM.
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2010-05-05, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Originally Posted by Pluto
But no, if you decide to gish as a wilder you should devote your few powers to combat. The point of the class is combat. Surging euphoria is to promote manifesting and then melee combat. My personal favorite is to link 2 debuffs and full attacking next round.
(Offensive Precognition and Prescience seem to be the extent of the list. Neither seems to catch a Wilder up to a featureless full BA class until past level 10.)
You don't know what surging euphoria does right?
At 4th level a fighter has +4 BAB, a wilder with surging euphoria would have +4 as well.
At 12th level a fighter has +12 BAB while a wilder has +11 with surging euphoria.
At 20th level a fighter would have +20 BAB while a wilder would have +19.
So yes they do lag behind but they still have the buffs that you mentioned, bonus to damage and powers to do other things.
I'd assume feats are going to be generalized requirements for Wilders and fighting-types like Power Attack, Psicrystal Affinity, Link Power, Psionic Meditation and Quick Recovery. I'd assume Vigor and Share pain and some 1 pp Swift power are going to eat up powers known. There just don't seem to be many resources left to invest in blasting.
...I'm still not seeing how this works without expanding the spell list with ACF's.Last edited by Samb; 2010-05-05 at 09:07 PM.
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2010-05-05, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
I'm abandoning ship on my own Ardent thread and jumping into this one. Really should have done that in the first place.
Ardents + Practiced Manifester apparently = hilarity, due to the wording on Ardent power selection. But seeing as you don't have very many power points anyways, just how effective is it in real play? Sure, you can manifest like you're four manifester levels higher - but you'll burn out in a flash. Of course there's the whole arguement that if the enemy died anyways, the end result is the same, but it still seems unstable in concept.
There is the possibility of setting one's feats on fire and taking nothing but Psionic Talent a billion times, but I don't think that's the answer I'm looking for.
How powerful are metapsionics in general? Somehow they seem much, much more powerful than Vancian metamagic, although that could just be my impression of them.
The PVS combo makes me raise one question - how are you supposed to repair the psicrystal after the encounter? Is Psicrystal Containment (the feat allowing you to hold a Psionic Focus) considered to be a requirement for any Psionic Focus user? What about Psionic Meditation?
After snatching up six levels of Ardent, is Slayer worth the loss of one Manifester level?
Gaaa, psionics is confusing. Much more complex than the Incarnum system. Still not as complex as the Vancian system, though. I will never, ever, master D&D's core system.Last edited by balistafreak; 2010-05-05 at 08:37 PM.
Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put tomato in fruit salad. Charisma is convincing someone it's a good idea anyways.
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2010-05-05, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
My contention with Surging Euphoria is that it's a morale bonus.
There may just be more Bards than normal in my groups, but that makes the ability more or less irrelevant.
shifter sub levels and gain access to egoists' list.
(Well, Educated too, but I haven't played with many people who took kindly to the WotC.com material.)Last edited by Pluto; 2010-05-05 at 09:04 PM.
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2010-05-05, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
My mistake, you need to be at least level 12. I usually hold off wilder lvl 9 for my 12th ECL so I get both of them at the same time.
As for how EK works for psywar, there is no clear agreement as to what is meant by "able to manifest". Does text trump table? Is it RAI to follow the max power level known even though text contradicts it? Jury is still out, but this would overcome one of the more serious problems for psywars (no high level powers).
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2010-05-05, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
It works fine. A level 13 Ardent has about as many PP as a level 20 Psychic Warrior.
While PWar PP can be frustrating, they're certainly not debilitating.
Just remember that you don't need to spend full PP every time you manifest.
How powerful are metapsionics in general? Somehow they seem much, much more powerful than Vancian metamagic, although that could just be my impression of them.
Remember that you lose Psionic Focus whenever you use them; that means there's none of those "Extended Split Maximized ____" sorts of things. That keeps them much more reasonable than they might first appear.
The PVS combo makes me raise one question - how are you supposed to repair the psicrystal after the encounter? Is Psicrystal Containment (the feat allowing you to hold a Psionic Focus) considered to be a requirement for any Psionic Focus user? What about Psionic Meditation?
Either Psionic Meditation or Psicrystal Containment is required for any character with a metapsionic feat. Both are ideal.
After snatching up six levels of Ardent, is Slayer worth the loss of one Manifester level?
Slayer costs more than one ML; it also blocks 2 secondary mantles.
(And it delays the Dominant Ideal ACF, if you can use it.)
It's a non-trivial tradeoff. I'd probably do it only if I thought the favored enemy would see a lot of use.
Gaaa, psionics is confusing. Much more complex than the Incarnum system.Last edited by Pluto; 2010-05-05 at 09:12 PM.
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2010-05-05, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
Hmmm. Well, I'll have to play a few games with psionics first to confirm that, but I'll accept that comparison.
Remember that you don't need to put full PP into every power.
I am however aware that you don't need to augment every lower level power to the max, though.
Link Power is invaluable. Extend Power is also very useful.
Remember that you lose Psionic Focus whenever you use them; that means there's none of those "Extended Split Maximized ____" sorts of things. That keeps them much more reasonable than they might first appear.
The general idea is not to have to repair the Psicrystal -- Vigor gives you a lot of breathing room there.
Either Psionic Meditation or Psicrystal Containment is required for any character with a metapsionic feat. Both are ideal.
I like Sanctified Mind (LoM) more - it does the same thing, has better class abilities and has a better prerequisite feat.
Slayer's cost is more than one ML; it also costs you 2 secondary mantles.
(And the Dominant Ideal ACF, if you can use that.)
It's a non-trivial tradeoff. I'd probably do it only if I thought the favored enemy would pay off heavily.
It's picking your melds outside of encounters that gets mind-numbingly complex.Last edited by balistafreak; 2010-05-05 at 09:11 PM.
Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put tomato in fruit salad. Charisma is convincing someone it's a good idea anyways.
I am a 12/13/13/17/15/17 True Neutral Sorcerer2.
Tainted Bonds, a newly-created Touhou x D&D 3.5 CYOA. Just read these before posting anywhere. Talk about it here.
Awesome remastered ballista avatar by Savannah!
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2010-05-05, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
If this is your first time playing psionics, I'd say stick with psywar or psion. Wilder and Ardent are very good but they break a lot of the balence is psionics and should not be your first psi PCs.
Psionics has two big limiting factors: PP spent on a power cannot exceed your ML and psionic focus. Wilder violates the first one while dominant mantle breaks the second one.
Not complete Ardent handbook. Again by yours truly.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=4368.0
still need to complete the feats and maybe 3rd party material. Enjoy.
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2010-05-05, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2010-05-05, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Psionic Gish help
But it's no fun if the character you're playing isn't pushing the envelope!
I had half a dozen more questions, but then I decided that looking through the power list would do me a whole lot more good first.
It seems like the required power trick is the PVS for super-durability. I'll have to muck around after that. It seems that as cool and stupidly rule-bending Monastic Training/Tashalatora is for a Psionic character, those feats would actually be better spent on Psionic feats... but I like punching people with Monk unarmed damage, just with psionics to back me up!
Is there a consolidated list of powers by level, similiar to the SRD lists but with all (realistically, core and maybe a few extra) powers instead of many separate lists? Seeing as I'll be picking them through mantles, that would be much more convenient than this multiple book/window/tab thing I'm doing right now.Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put tomato in fruit salad. Charisma is convincing someone it's a good idea anyways.
I am a 12/13/13/17/15/17 True Neutral Sorcerer2.
Tainted Bonds, a newly-created Touhou x D&D 3.5 CYOA. Just read these before posting anywhere. Talk about it here.
Awesome remastered ballista avatar by Savannah!