)3.5( ToH Character

[Deth Muncher]

Hai guise. So, I'll be in ToH this summer. The DM is slightly modifying the module (he says he'll be slightly watering it down, and there'll be plot to it to as opposed to "Get to the bottom. Kill the lich. Get blown up by Sphere of Annihilation traps."), and I'm not trying to metagame here, any further than "Hey. ToH = traps. Trapped traps. Like that quote about the kobold silverware drawer." What I DO want to know is how I should build my guy.

The DM has said there's no Leadership, since he figures all we'd do with followers is send them to their deaths. He also says gouda is to be kept to a minimum. He HAS (tentatively) approved Factotum, and he has also approved a Bag of Tricks (with the caution that some of the tunnels may not be big enough for some of the animals summoned from it.

My other thought for a character for the ToH is a Binder. I'd need to gain another level before I could enact my ironic joke, but those of you who know Binders should know which 5th level vestige I would want for this.

Anyway, thoughts for character build/equipment? Assume regular WBL, all non-Dragon, non-Third Party books.

EDIT: Also, to clarify, this is the 3.5 update, not Return to the Tomb of Horrors.

[AmberVael]

Factotum would be a pretty great class, I think. They have a ton of abilities which don't need daily refreshing, and wide variety of abilities that allow you to survive on your own after other people have gotten killed off.


Honestly, I think a hilarious strategy would be to make a character with the Summon Elemental reserve feat. Just keep summoning minor elementals and chucking them forward to spring traps from a safe distance!
"Instant mook, just add magic!"
But such might incur the wrath of DM.

[Deth Muncher]

Factotum would be a pretty great class, I think. They have a ton of abilities which don't need daily refreshing, and wide variety of abilities that allow you to survive on your own after other people have gotten killed off.


Honestly, I think a hilarious strategy would be to make a character with the Summon Elemental reserve feat. Just keep summoning minor elementals and chucking them forward to spring traps from a safe distance!
"Instant mook, just add magic!"
But such might incur the wrath of DM.

I actually mentioned Summon Elemental reserve. The DM wasn't so keen on it. :P

[Deth Muncher]

So, I'm going to take a look at the Factotum Handbook, but what's a good way to optimize a Factotum not only for 9th level, but also for the ToH?

[senrath]

Wait, he's watering the module down? The 3.5 module does not need to be watered down. It's already been diluted plenty with the shift in editions.

Anyway, more actions are always good, so pick up Font of Inspiration a couple of times. But not too many, or your DM'll probably kill you, instead of just your character.

[Deth Muncher]

Wait, he's watering the module down? The 3.5 module does not need to be watered down. It's already been diluted plenty with the shift in editions.

Anyway, more actions are always good, so pick up Font of Inspiration a couple of times. But not too many, or your DM'll probably kill you, instead of just your character.

He may not be watering it down, if the 3.5 updated is in fact watered down. The exact phrase he used was "The one we'll be playing will be more watered down than, y'know, the 2ed one."

Also, isn't FoI online? I MAY have trouble clearing that with him, but it's worth a shot.

[Yorrin]

Factotum... it just doesn't work as well as it should. I'd go with the Feat Rogue, myself (gives up sneak attack for Fighter bonus feats- UA). Still all the skill points you'll need, plus some other useful stuff, like trapfinding, evasion, etc.

ToH is not a bad setting for a Bard, if you already have a trapfinding specialist. Bardic Knack is your friend here, and the party will greatly appreciate your general presence. It also seems about the right power level for your dont-suck-but-dont-powergame environment.

Binder seems good too, but I'm not familiar enough to provide a useful commentary there. Of note- it doesn't get a ton of skill points. That could be a problem if you let it be.

[Da Beast]

I played through about half of ToH before the DM got fed up with my character. Summon elemental is probably the best way to do it without getting killed. Summon elementals to do everything, and I mean everything. Want to tough something? Back as far away as a minor air elemental can move with a double move action, then send one in. Don't walk down a hallway until you've sent elementals over every square of it, including using earth elementals to tunnel around the hallway, floors, walls and ceiling. Aside from that, always have overland flight active so you never have to touch the ground. Keep celerity prepared and use it right before a trap goes off on you, then dimension door as far as it will take you straight up. Overland flight will keep you from going splat. Another nice spell to pair with celerity is slide (C Arcane I think, or maybe PHB2), which lets you move another party member a couple of squares. Used celerity and slide to save another party member from a pit trap once. DM was pissed about that one. I think the final blow to his sanity came when we discovered the magic gateway that changes your gender and I ordered everyone through it. We then declared our party Charlie's Angels, decided that all of my summoned elementals were named Bosley, and started arguing about who got to be Drew Barrymore. Come to think of it, I don't think that guy has run a game since ToH.

[Jack_Simth]

He may not be watering it down, if the 3.5 updated is in fact watered down. The exact phrase he used was "The one we'll be playing will be more watered down than, y'know, the 2ed one."

Also, isn't FoI online? I MAY have trouble clearing that with him, but it's worth a shot.

Then he's probably using the 3.5 version as written.

In the prior versions of The Tomb, the mechanics were such that you, the player, had to pick the actions to take - poking the cieling, floor, and walls with a ten-foot pole - to find traps. The 3.5 mechanic is "roll Search, roll Disable Device" for about 90% of them. 2nd ed was "Guess what Gygax was thinking", 3.5 version, not so much (although some of that is still in there).

If Summon Elemental is out, then you can't use the full Trapsmith Wizard build. You can, however, learn all the elemental languages, plus Celestial, Infernal, and Fiendish, and play a Sorcerer with a Summon spell at each level, plus Arcane Sight and some blasty spell that affects objects, to much the same effect. There's a few other ways to get at-will summons.

Really, though, the Trapsmith Wizard can be done in quite a few ways. You need:
1) A way to get a very large number of disposable minions (Summon spells, Summon Elemental, lots of Unseen Servant spells hauling sacks full of rocks, whatever - you do need to be able to communicate with them, though). Fortunately, The Tomb lets you camp out to replenish spells whenever you want, so you just need the ability to make this happen some number of times per day to make it work.
2) A way to detect magic a large number of times per day (multiple castings of Arcane Sight, tons of castings of Detect Magic, a Permanencied Arcane Sight or Detect Magic, the Magic Sensitive Reserve Feat, Vatic Gaze, the Warlock ability, or similar). Fortunately, The Tomb lets you camp out to replenish spells whenever you want, so you just need the ability to make this happen some number of times per day to make it work.
3) A way to deal damage to objects at range (Acidic Splatter Reserve Feat, the Warlock's Eldritch Blast, lots of Shout spells, whatever).
4) A way to survive without air (The Ioun stone, a racial pick, a Necklace of Adaptation, a bottle of air, whatever).

You can do that, Core, with a 9th level Full Caster of any stripe. The Bard can also pull it off. Then you're just left with the relative handful of monsters in the module and the monkey-traps (and the monkey-traps are easy enough to deal with remotely if you've got the above).

[Amphetryon]

Warlocks and the Trapfinding ACF Ranger could both be quite useful in ToH.

[Deth Muncher]

Then he's probably using the 3.5 version as written.

In the prior versions of The Tomb, the mechanics were such that you, the player, had to pick the actions to take - poking the cieling, floor, and walls with a ten-foot pole - to find traps. The 3.5 mechanic is "roll Search, roll Disable Device" for about 90% of them. 2nd ed was "Guess what Gygax was thinking", 3.5 version, not so much (although some of that is still in there).

If Summon Elemental is out, then you can't use the full Trapsmith Wizard build. You can, however, learn all the elemental languages, plus Celestial, Infernal, and Fiendish, and play a Sorcerer with a Summon spell at each level, plus Arcane Sight and some blasty spell that affects objects, to much the same effect. There's a few other ways to get at-will summons.

Really, though, the Trapsmith Wizard can be done in quite a few ways. You need:
1) A way to get a very large number of disposable minions (Summon spells, Summon Elemental, lots of Unseen Servant spells hauling sacks full of rocks, whatever - you do need to be able to communicate with them, though). Fortunately, The Tomb lets you camp out to replenish spells whenever you want, so you just need the ability to make this happen some number of times per day to make it work.
2) A way to detect magic a large number of times per day (multiple castings of Arcane Sight, tons of castings of Detect Magic, a Permanencied Arcane Sight or Detect Magic, the Magic Sensitive Reserve Feat, Vatic Gaze, the Warlock ability, or similar). Fortunately, The Tomb lets you camp out to replenish spells whenever you want, so you just need the ability to make this happen some number of times per day to make it work.
3) A way to deal damage to objects at range (Acidic Splatter Reserve Feat, the Warlock's Eldritch Blast, lots of Shout spells, whatever).
4) A way to survive without air (The Ioun stone, a racial pick, a Necklace of Adaptation, a bottle of air, whatever).

You can do that, Core, with a 9th level Full Caster of any stripe. The Bard can also pull it off. Then you're just left with the relative handful of monsters in the module and the monkey-traps (and the monkey-traps are easy enough to deal with remotely if you've got the above).

A favorite of mine is to get Pemanencied Arcane Sight for just such things. However, I'm afraid the DM may hate that idea (as well he should). I COULD run a sorceror - it's what I'm good at. Maybe dip a level of rogue too. I just don't know how many trapfinders we're gonna have.

Another alternative would be Artificer, right? Like, I'll have skillpoints out the wazoo, and be able to disenchant stuff to take its essence and make it into other things. I'd just have to do that trick where I shove Unseen Crafters in a Bag of Holding and have them do my crafting while we're in the dungeon.

[Chuckles101]

To be honest, I feel that judicious choosing of feats with the base classes leads to a good experience, as long as you're a thinking player who can figure out the real dungeon. :-)

Some prestige classes are just really cheesy, and can make the experience unfun as you could possibly just breeze through it. (although, I don't see any first-timer breezing through the tomb of horrors)

[Deth Muncher]

To be honest, I feel that judicious choosing of feats with the base classes leads to a good experience, as long as you're a thinking player who can figure out the real dungeon. :-)

Some prestige classes are just really cheesy, and can make the experience unfun as you could possibly just breeze through it. (although, I don't see any first-timer breezing through the tomb of horrors)

Heh, I wondered if Solo would show you this, Chuckles. :D

EDIT: Or are you THAT Chuckles?! You might be a random Chuckles that is in no way related to the Chuckles I know.

But you probably are.

DOUBLE-EDIT: If you ARE the Chuckles I know, then this makes this easy, as I can just post my proposed build up here.

[Chuckles101]

Lol... don't post your character up here. We'll talk.

And I am THAT Chuckles. :-)

[Deth Muncher]

Lol... don't post your character up here. We'll talk.

And I am THAT Chuckles. :-)

But again, as you can see from my posts, I wasn't trying to break anything. ^_^ Right? Riiiiiight?

[Jack_Simth]

A favorite of mine is to get Pemanencied Arcane Sight for just such things. However, I'm afraid the DM may hate that idea (as well he should). I COULD run a sorceror - it's what I'm good at. Maybe dip a level of rogue too. I just don't know how many trapfinders we're gonna have.

The Tomb is known for it's traps. There's pretty good odds you'll end up with a couple of trapfinders. And fundamentally, that's what the Sorcerer build is - a trapfinder. But then, you don't really need a summon spell at each level - Summon Monster I, Unseen Servant, Detect Magic (or Arcane Sight), Shout, and Extend Spell will do you quite well in that regard. Covers everything but the no-air survival bit.

Another alternative would be Artificer, right? Like, I'll have skillpoints out the wazoo, and be able to disenchant stuff to take its essence and make it into other things. I'd just have to do that trick where I shove Unseen Crafters in a Bag of Holding and have them do my crafting while we're in the dungeon.

Then the question becomes one of materials, though.


Edit:
But then, it's understandable that your DM would be annoyed at a trapsmith build in The Tomb. See, The Tomb of Horros is a poorly-designed module - 95% of it is the exact same trick, over and over again, with variations. Once you've got a way to reliably deal with that one trick it's... boring. As all get-out. For everyone involved. Sure, you get to watch all the pretty traps go off, over and over again, on your summoned minions... but it's the same thing over and over and over again. A trapsmith Wizard (or Druid, or Cleric, or Sorcerer... all four can do the build just fine by 9th) does okay in a normal dungeon (being a Wizard ... or Druid, or Cleric, or Sorcerer...), but takes down 95% of The Tomb all by his lonesome without breaking a sweat. Why? It's a poorly designed module - it's the same thing over & over again. It's like a specialty charger build - neutralize the charge, neutralize the character. Neutralize the traps, neutralize The Tomb.