Zing gots da Big Kaboom!

[sonofzeal]

Explosive Spell: +2 Metamagic, Ref save vs getting sent flying and taking damage.

Forceful Spell: +1 Metamagic, Fort save vs being knocked prone and stunned

Great Thunderclap: 3rd level spell, medium range, 20' radius, no SR... Will vs stun 1 round, Fort vs deaf 1 minute, Ref vs prone.


...now obviously Explosive Forceful Great Thunderclap (Great Thunderclap of Exploding Force?) is too lulzy to pass up. I want to package this up as a magic item for a newb, basically a scroll reflavoured as a bomb they can chuck for massive lulz.

The DM is very permissive, so we're pretty free here, but I want to at least stay within RAW. What's the best way to minimize price, and maximize DC, for this hypothetical scroll-bomb? Is Explosive Spell worth it, or does it raise the price too much?

ECL 12, standard gold, all books allowed, and the character will be a pirate-flavoured Rogue in a fairly optimized party.

[imperialspectre]

Well, the problem is that the DC for scrolls is the minimum necessary to cast the spell to put it on a scroll. So it's a DC 14 scroll, and there's not much you can do about it.

On the other hand, if it's considered legal to put metamagic on a scroll (it's not explicitly forbidden, but I've never seen rules for doing it), then it's probably awesome to do so.

[sonofzeal]

Well, the problem is that the DC for scrolls is the minimum necessary to cast the spell to put it on a scroll. So it's a DC 14 scroll, and there's not much you can do about it.

On the other hand, if it's considered legal to put metamagic on a scroll (it's not explicitly forbidden, but I've never seen rules for doing it), then it's probably awesome to do so.

I'm going to assume Scroll-metamagics are legal, for the purpose of this character at least. And metamagic-reducers should help get the cost down.

You're right that the DC is a problem. I'd love to have a DC closer to 18 or so, but I can't figure out a good way of doing that. I can afford to spend a feat or two, and possibly even some dips, if that helps.

[SethFahad]

...you mean metamagically-buffed Explosive Runes?

[sonofzeal]

...you mean metamagically-buffed Explosive Runes?

I want to use Great Thunderclap as the base, for the sheer lulz. I might throw Explosive Runes into the mix, as it'd provide some extra damage, but the idea is to call for a hilarious number of saving throws which mostly just result in panic and confusion rather than actual damage.

[Darius Rae]

Weren't there alternate objects that could store spells like scrolls listed somewhere? IIRC there were oils or rocks that mechanically were the same, but would be cooler if you wanted to have such a weapon.

[sonofzeal]

Weren't there alternate objects that could store spells like scrolls listed somewhere? IIRC there were oils or rocks that mechanically were the same, but would be cooler if you wanted to have such a weapon.

A quick reflavouring should be sufficient. She'll have the UMD to use the scroll, pay the price for the scroll, but describes herself lobbing a supercharged flashbang instead of reading some glowey words off a piece of paper.

[Zen Master]

Hm - could a potion do it?

I don't recall what exactly the books say, except that it's 3rd level spells max.

[Ashram]

I'm almost positive that all magic items START with the minimum necessary caster level to use the spell. There's nothing that says you can't go above that. It would just count as a higher level spell.

[sonofzeal]

Hm - could a potion do it?

I don't recall what exactly the books say, except that it's 3rd level spells max.

That'll be double the price of the scroll method, with no increase on DC. And it's the DC I'm really concerned with right now.

I'm almost positive that all magic items START with the minimum necessary caster level to use the spell. There's nothing that says you can't go above that. It would just count as a higher level spell.

Caster level increases price, but doesn't increase DC. That seems counterproductive.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Aren't scrolls assumed to be cast with the minimum intellegence to cast a spell of that level? So, wouldn't it be like 3rd lvl spell with a 16 intellegence, DC 16?

[Ashram]

That'll be double the price of the scroll method, with no increase on DC. And it's the DC I'm really concerned with right now.


Caster level increases price, but doesn't increase DC. That seems counterproductive.

In the case of a scroll, doesn't it cast as you do? Meaning, if you had Spell Focus: Evocation and you made a scroll of Fireball, wouldn't it get the +1 DC?

Anyway, my only advice would be to either Divine Metamagic it with another caster, or whore out your feat slots for metamagic cost-reducing shenanigans and then use Heighten.

[ZeroNumerous]

You're right that the DC is a problem. I'd love to have a DC closer to 18 or so, but I can't figure out a good way of doing that. I can afford to spend a feat or two, and possibly even some dips, if that helps.

The only exception to this rule are staff-based spells.

[sonofzeal]

In the case of a scroll, doesn't it cast as you do? Meaning, if you had Spell Focus: Evocation and you made a scroll of Fireball, wouldn't it get the +1 DC?

.....good call! I'd forgotten that!

Alright, so pump her Int and maybe take that feat, should be reasonable. Problem solved!

[Kylarra]

Bead of Force is 75gp*CL*Spell level for a bomb of sorts. I realize that's even worse than the potion idea costwise, but just throwing it out there. You could probably justify it at the 50gp*CL*spell level and say throwing it is use activated for an attack spell.

[imperialspectre]

In the case of a scroll, doesn't it cast as you do? Meaning, if you had Spell Focus: Evocation and you made a scroll of Fireball, wouldn't it get the +1 DC?

Anyway, my only advice would be to either Divine Metamagic it with another caster, or whore out your feat slots for metamagic cost-reducing shenanigans and then use Heighten.

No, scrolls do *not* cast as you do. Staves cast as you do, scrolls just need to you read them and have all of the variables preset.

Edit: Sorry to be so much on the "no you can't" side of things, I just don't know of any legal ways to do what you're trying to do.

[sonofzeal]

No, scrolls do *not* cast as you do. Staves cast as you do, scrolls just need to you read them and have all of the variables preset.

Edit: Sorry to be so much on the "no you can't" side of things, I just don't know of any legal ways to do what you're trying to do.

Reading through the text, I don't think you're right.

"A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise."

I don't care about the CL here, just the DC. Since it say it works like a spell cast the normal way, by implication it uses the caster's Int/Cha, not the crafter's. And even if I did care about the CL, it's the caster who has control here, not the crafter.

I think this works.

[Reynard]

Reading through the text, I don't think you're right.

"A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise."

I don't care about the CL here, just the DC. Since it say it works like a spell cast the normal way, by implication it uses the caster's Int/Cha, not the crafter's. And even if I did care about the CL, it's the caster who has control here, not the crafter.

I think this works.

It that annoying piece of text, the word caster is interchangeable with the word crafter. Stupid WotC editors.