Wizards against Undead

[GideonRiddle]

Trying to Fix my Wizard build in the Undead Campaign that I'm in.
Originally was Wiz/3, Master Specialist/10 specialized in evocation.
After unforseen circumstances (aka. dying and a god rebuilding you) I became the same build with specialization in necromancy with Cleric/2.
Then I lost a level(twice) so I am level 14.

I am using Psychic Reformation to redo my character.

What I am looking for is a powerful build in general but especially agianst undead.(still wizard)
needs to go to lv. 25.

And my DM seems to forget that the players aren't his friends from back home who have lv 1 that destroy planet by yawning. (This means Dracoliches, and all sorts of horrifing death to come.)

[HunterOfJello]

what books do you have access to? i would think a wizard with the spell compendium would have no trouble with undead

i also wouldn't normally specialize in necromancy, there aren't enough spells in the school at some levels compared to other schools

[Greenish]

Logicninja's Being Batman and Treantmonk's Being a God are the definitive guides to wizards, so if you haven't read 'em yet, check them over.

[QuantumSteve]

Logicninja's Being Batman and Treantmonk's Being a God are the definitive guides to wizards, so if you haven't read 'em yet, check them over.

This. Everything that works normally will usually work against undead barring mind-affecting and negative energy.

[Eldariel]

Wizard has one absolute killer vs. Undead: Disintegrate. Fort is their bad save (no Con, poor progression) and this affects objects and they lack con to HP so a Disintegrate generally works, and is lethal. Empower if you feel you need insurance.

Illusions are excellent against unintelligent Undead and Control Undead (if you have a decent Cha) has many nice uses. You should protect yourself as per normal with Contingency, Superior Resistance, Mind Blank, Displacement, Instant Refuge, et cetera. Etherealness is quite useful against undead that tend to reside on the ethereal plane, and a superpimped Orb of Force is a very reliable weapon against dead of any kind.

Solid Fogs, Walls of Force, Magic Circle against Evil, etc. work just fine against dead (though Solid Fog is obviously less impressive against incorporeals), and it may be worth your while to Planar Bind a good Outsider with high-level Cleric casting like a Ghaele Eladrin or later a Planetar, and ask them to work with you; Death Wards, Undeath's Eternal Foe and such come in handy every now and then.


Really, it's mostly about spells. The higher level, the better. Undead tend to respond well to being blown to smithereens (though you may occasionally end up having to trap bothersome spirits or some such), so metamagic stacking is a good idea, and classes that enable that (Incantatrix, Halruaan Elder [PGtF]) may interest you. Also, Arcane Thesis [PHBII] and Boom Boom might be prudent.

But yeah, if you need power, it's hard to go wrong with Incantatrix. And as long as you don't ban Conjuration, Transmutation, Abjuration or Illusion, you should do fine.

[QuantumSteve]

Wizard has one absolute killer vs. Undead: Disintegrate. Fort is their bad save (no Con, poor progression) and this affects objects and they lack con to HP so a Disintegrate generally works, and is lethal. Empower if you feel you need insurance.

Don't Undead get Cha to Fort saves? Mindless undead are pwnd with only 1 Cha (usually) but intelligent undead often have above average Cha.

[lsfreak]

Don't Undead get Cha to Fort saves? Mindless undead are pwnd with only 1 Cha (usually) but intelligent undead often have above average Cha.

Not at all. They get Cha to Concentration checks, and certain undead also get Cha to saves or Cha to hit points, but the vast majority of undead have pretty crappy Fort saves

[quiet1mi]

Other people exist within the party right?

Batman Wizard is a Support character.... people know that right?
Haste the party, Slow the Enemy... Bam your party has almost 3 times as many options...

Summon monster III gives you multiple ravens that can all aid another.... Bam your party fighter hits... with every attack

Solid Fog/Wall of Ice... you have cut the number of bad guys in half... Bam the party now out numbers the enemy and the "Fighter" can beat people one on one... or even two on one...

The "Fighter" is in the group to mop up the encounter...

*note that summoned creatures are an accepted substitute for a "fighter"

[Prodan]

You could do ok as an Evoker as well, with Walls of Ice, Resilient Spheres, and Scorching Rays. I assume undead have poor reflex saves, so throw on some AoEs as well if you are so inclined.

[Superglucose]

Conjuration does great. Things like "Glitterdust" still blind them (NOT mind effecting), Grease still knocks them on their bum (unless they're flying of course), Plane Shift still makes them go elsewhere, Black Tentacles still grapples them, and Acid Fog will do some good.

Baleful Polymorph is still broken good.

Haste, the buff spells... Illusions do great against mindless undead iirc.

Just use the normal tricks in the wizard guides, tbh.

[tyckspoon]

Not at all. They get Cha to Concentration checks, and certain undead also get Cha to saves or Cha to hit points, but the vast majority of undead have pretty crappy Fort saves

Incidentally, Zombies tend to have decent Fort saves by sheer weight of HD, as their CR scales by something absurd like 1 CR/4 HD. A lot of special undead can be nuked quite efficiently, however, since a large portion of their CR values is special abilities instead of HD-benefits. And when you really need to take down a 20-HD zombie, well.. Command Undead is a no-save Dominate when used on mindless undead. Pick the biggest one in the area and tell it to destroy all the other ones for you.

[Eldariel]

Incidentally, Zombies tend to have decent Fort saves by sheer weight of HD, as their CR scales by something absurd like 1 CR/4 HD. A lot of special undead can be nuked quite efficiently, however, since a large portion of their CR values is special abilities instead of HD-benefits. And when you really need to take down a 20-HD zombie, well.. Command Undead is a no-save Dominate when used on mindless undead. Pick the biggest one in the area and tell it to destroy all the other ones for you.

And even with the HD, the fact that their Save-progression is poor means their "good" Fort-save is no more than Tarrasque's "good" Will-save; sure it's +20 but it's still failing way over half the time against level appropriate Wizard. Honestly, progressions scale saves really poorly compared to stats, the "+2" and so on. Even a 40 HD Zombie merely has +13 Fort-save. If you fear the damage isn't enough, Empower it. If you fear that isn't enough either, Split Ray it. I daresay, Split Ray Disintegrate will do it most of the time. And if that's not enough either, use a Rod of Maximize with it.

It's worth remembering that Undead have good Will-save progression so while Glitterdust, Plane Shift and company work, they still hit the strong point. And many Undead have rather high Dexterity so while their Ref is somewhat poor, Grease and Web aren't that powerful (though definitely useful in your arsenal, especially against Undead with class levels). But yeah, Transmutation and Conjuration have large amounts of magic that enables targeting all saves regardless of Undead immunities, and access to damage spells they have great difficulty avoiding. So...I'd go there if wanting to be an Undead-bane myself.

[Necrus Philius]

Chill touch is now actually worth it

[Totally Guy]

I thought this was a political protest thread.

"No reanimation without sanitisation!"

[Vizzerdrix]

I thought this was a political protest thread.

"No reanimation without sanitisation!"

My Necro Americans. I have a dream. A dream that one day we will be able to shamble freely. A dream where we wont be hated based on the purification, or lack of our skin...

[Ingus]

A very, very, very good spell against physical undead: "Shrink Item".
Undeads are considered objects, so you can shrink them up to 4 size categories. You can, then, pick up the undead tank and put in your bag for further abuse. Or, for a particularily fool spellcaster, you can eat it.
But it is not suggested use it to a undead spellcaster, unless your absolutely sure you'll kill immediately afterwards

[JaronK]

A very, very, very good spell against physical undead: "Shrink Item".
Undeads are considered objects,

No, they're not. They're creatures. Objects are defined as not being Creatures. Dead things are objects, so you can use Object targetting spells on them before reanimation and the spells stay on after, but you can't cast object targetting spells on active undead (or constructs, btw).

JaronK

[Divide by Zero]

Illusions. Particularly silent image et al. Mindless undead don't get saves to disbelieve, so as long as you don't use mind-affecting ones, you're good.

[GideonRiddle]

The necromancy wasn't my choice, that was what the "Dark God" we are dealing with did to me.

Normally(campaign considering) it wouldn't be a huge deal, but when the cleric brought me back Pelor started filtering my magic so necromancy that hurt living only hurt undead and all I could control was deathless.

This was followed closely by a sudden switch fighting living creatures that I am now useless against.


Thanks for the suggestions and links will see what comes up.

[nedz]

Illusions. Particularly silent image et al. Mindless undead don't get saves to disbelieve, so as long as you don't use mind-affecting ones, you're good.

Interesting: I always thought that mindless undead were immune to all illusions but it appears that Figments, Glamers and Shadow spells do effect them (by RAW at least).
Undead are immune to Patterns and Phantasms though.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well one obvious spell is wall of fire, its double damage vs undead, putting it up in circle form between you and some undead means they need to pass through the wall twice.

Undeath to Death.[the undead killing version of circle of death] is good against shadows, specters and wraiths. Sure 9HD or more means no effect but those low-HD ability drainers are deadly upwards of the mid levels if the party lacks a cleric to turn them.

[Flickerdart]

The necromancy wasn't my choice, that was what the "Dark God" we are dealing with did to me.

Normally(campaign considering) it wouldn't be a huge deal, but when the cleric brought me back Pelor started filtering my magic so necromancy that hurt living only hurt undead and all I could control was deathless.

This was followed closely by a sudden switch fighting living creatures that I am now useless against.


Thanks for the suggestions and links will see what comes up.

So your DM nerfed you four times, by giving you a poor focus, then making that focus even poorer and poorer, and then making it completely useless?

[GideonRiddle]

Basically yeah to start.

Anyway, I am thinking to be a generalist wizard but I need something to replace my familiar.

And in an attempt to stop it before it starts the wizard of Sun and Moon won't work since there is no visible Sun (via the aforementioned "Dark God").

Unless I misunderstood it somehow.

[abandon hope]

Batman Wizard is a Support character.... people know that right?

Sure, if you mean in the same way that a blacksmith supports his hammer in use. But when you say it like that, one could assume that the other party members have some control.

[Eldariel]

Basically yeah to start.

Anyway, I am thinking to be a generalist wizard but I need something to replace my familiar.

And in an attempt to stop it before it starts the wizard of Sun and Moon won't work since there is no visible Sun (via the aforementioned "Dark God").

Unless I misunderstood it somehow.

Can't you just become a Conjurer? Abrupt Jaunt it up, begin profiting.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Maximize some high-level spells that do positive energy damage and heighten some spells that require fort saves.