Advanced allips

[true_shinken]

So, I advanced an allip to 12HD and used elite array (then added +1 Cha and +2 Dex because of 12HD) to use them as mooks for a dungeon in my next session. I'm a bit worried about the stats, though - it does not look like CR 6 at all. What do you guys think?
Also, my group is composed of 6 characters - a human artificer 7/samurai (OA) 1/sohei 1, an aasimar swordsage 9/shiba protector 1/paladin 3 (Wisdom focused with Serenity and that feat from BoED that uses Wis to attack; allips are surely gonna surprise him), an elf warlock 7/cyran avenger 2 (glaivelock), a half-elf rogue 3/swashbuckler 3/scarlet corsair 3, a human lurk 5/chameleon 4 and a human wizard 8 that is skipping too many sessions.

Advanced Allip [ND 6]
NE Medium undead (incorporeal)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60ft; Listen +14, Spot +14
Languages Common, Abyssal
AC 21, touch 21, flat-footed 17 (+4 Dex, +7 deflection)
Resist turn resistance +2
Immune all mind-affecting effects, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, ability damage, fatigue, massive damage, Fortitude effects (unless it works on objects)
hp 78 (12 HD); 50% miss chance from corporeal attackers
ST Fort +4, Ref+8, Will +9
Speed Fly 30 ft. (perfect)
Melee incorporeal touch +11, 1d4 Wisdom drain
Base Atk +6; Grp --
Atk Options wisdom drain
SQ darkvision 60 ft
Abilities Str --, Dex 18, Con --, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 24
Feats Ability Focus (babble), Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (incorporeal touch)
Skills Bluff +14, Hide +19, Intimidate +22, Listen +14, Search +6, Spot +14

[Eldariel]

Allips are like that; as are Undead. If they have abilities with saves, the HD increases by CR guidelines do funny things. Otherwise, the HD is not particularly scary. Allip, unfortunately, falls under the latter and is woefully under-CRd in the first place (honestly, those things are going to take out at least one party member in level appropriate encounter practically always, and them healing off their attacks that almost always hit doesn't help either).

Umm, regarding the stats, they use Dex for To Hit by default (as they lack Str-score) so Weapon Finesse seems kinda wasted. Mite as well build towards Spring Attack and make a baby Dread Wraith. But yeah, this is "abuse of the CR system" and a case of DM deciding that the CR guidelines aren't appropriate, 'cause just as Tarrasque is never a CR 20, so too is that thing in any light a CR 6.

EDIT: How did they end up with Improved Feint without having the prerequisite Combat Expertise?

[Draz74]

IIRC, in tables of the most under-CR'd critters of each CR, the contest for "nastiest published CR 3 monster" usually is a toss-up between Allip and That Damn Crab.

(Other noteworthy classics include the Kobold Adept 4 at CR 1, the Shadow at CR 2, the Adamantine Clockwork Horror at CR 10 (?), and the Planetar at CR 16. That last one is my personal favorite.)

[Drogorn]

Well, it can't actually kill anyone... Wisdom drain doesn't kill. Hypnotism is very easy to break. Essentially, short of it managing to knock everyone down, which is extremely unlikely, everyone will recover. They will likely have to spend some resources to get the wisdom drain healed up, since they don't have a cleric.

[Eldariel]

Well, it can't actually kill anyone... Wisdom drain doesn't kill. Hypnotism is very easy to break. Essentially, short of it managing to knock everyone down, which is extremely unlikely, everyone will recover. They will likely have to spend some resources to get the wisdom drain healed up, since they don't have a cleric.

They might not, but many, many other things in the dungeon will quickly come and eat the corpses; probably not the first things the Allips have slain, knowing the creatures. One man isn't going to carry two bodies practically ever so some will be left behind even if they somehow survive, for others to feed on.

[true_shinken]

Allips are like that; as are Undead. If they have abilities with saves, the HD increases by CR guidelines do funny things. Otherwise, the HD is not particularly scary. Allip, unfortunately, falls under the latter and is woefully under-CRd in the first place (honestly, those things are going to take out at least one party member in level appropriate encounter practically always, and them healing off their attacks that almost always hit doesn't help either).

I expect the allips to hit less because we're using the defense bonus rules, and so touch AC is a lot higher.

Umm, regarding the stats, they use Dex for To Hit by default (as they lack Str-score) so Weapon Finesse seems kinda wasted. Mite as well build towards Spring Attack and make a baby Dread Wraith. But yeah, this is "abuse of the CR system" and a case of DM deciding that the CR guidelines aren't appropriate, 'cause just as Tarrasque is never a CR 20, so too is that thing in any light a CR 6.

Oh, can't believe I missed that. I'll sub Weapon Finesse for Combat Expertise, thanks. What CR would you give this specific allip?

They might not, but many, many other things in the dungeon will quickly come and eat the corpses; probably not the first things the Allips have slain, knowing the creatures. One man isn't going to carry two bodies practically ever so some will be left behind even if they somehow survive, for others to feed on.

This specific dungeon is the home aof a noble family; a demented wizard ghost summoned whisper demons which caused most of the nobles and servants to become allips. There are also other summoned demons (for now I'm going with kastigur as a semi-boss and whisper demons) and the ghost, of course. There are also survivors that might provide healing and a place to rest. So even being defeated by the allips wouldn't probably mean 'instant death', more like 'torture in the hands of demons'.

Also, I wanted a few non-incorporeal mooks. Anyone care to suggest a corporeal demon around CR 5-6 that does not absolutely suck? Last session the chameleon player alone breezed through an encounter with 3 kytons and a corruptor of fate (damn Otherwordly + Alter Self!).

[Drogorn]

It can only deal 1d4 wisdom drain a round. That means that, at least, it will take 3 round to down someone. Unless somebody has used wisdom as a dump stat for some reason. However, we can assume it will deal an average of 2.5 wisdom drain per round. If nobody has less than 10 wisdom, it will need 4 rounds to drop a single person. 1 of them would be a pushover for a 9th level party, since it couldn't drop anyone. 2 would be a credible threat, 4 would be extremely dangerous, and 6 would drop several party members. I do agree that CR 6 is too low though, but that's what happens when the base monster is too low to begin with.

[Eldariel]

I expect the allips to hit less because we're using the defense bonus rules, and so touch AC is a lot higher.

Oh, can't believe I missed that. I'll sub Weapon Finesse for Combat Expertise, thanks. What CR would you give this specific allip?

Well, as long as it doesn't have Spring Attack, I'd say it's rather fair at 7. The low amount of Drain does make it manageable, especially with access to Restoration through scrolls or whatever. It's worth noting that as your party is rather powerful, you can probably afford a bit stronger creatures.

This specific dungeon is the home aof a noble family; a demented wizard ghost summoned whisper demons which caused most of the nobles and servants to become allips. There are also other summoned demons (for now I'm going with kastigur as a semi-boss and whisper demons) and the ghost, of course. There are also survivors that might provide healing and a place to rest. So even being defeated by the allips wouldn't probably mean 'instant death', more like 'torture in the hands of demons'.

I'd rather pick instant death over torture in the hands of demons (after death, I'd just get resurrected...under torture, I'd mostly scream for the rest of eternity losing my nails and having them instantly regrown until I go mad with pain and become an Allip, ultimately saving the world by killing the Tarrasque under Control Undead). Alright.

Also, I wanted a few non-incorporeal mooks. Anyone care to suggest a corporeal demon around CR 5-6 that does not absolutely suck? Last session the chameleon player alone breezed through an encounter with 3 kytons and a corruptor of fate (damn Otherwordly + Alter Self!).

Legion Devils are pretty fun. Too bad you're going Demon. Few Arrow Demons [MM3], perhaps? CR7, but quite respectable. Maybe with a Warblade-level? Or perhaps somewhat optimized Kytons? Those things can get rather nasty with some feats.

[true_shinken]

Legion Devils are pretty fun. Too bad you're going Demon. Few Arrow Demons [MM3], perhaps? CR7, but quite respectable. Maybe with a Warblade-level? Or perhaps somewhat optimized Kytons? Those things can get rather nasty with some feats.

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions, Eldariel.
I also think Legion Devils are very fun. I used them against a party once abord pirate ship - worrying about the sure-striking devils and the Balance checks made everyone very tense. I'll take a look on the arrow demons... but do you have any specific advice to optimize kytons?

[Keld Denar]

Are these just advanced Allips? Or are they "Greater Allips"? Most of the advanced Incorps like Wraith > Dread Wraith or Shadow > Greater Shadow upgrades increase the die size of their attack by 1 size. Following that metric, a Greater Allip should have a 1d6 drain.

DO note that Allips, unlike Shadows or Wraiths, deal DRAIN instead of DAMAGE. The difference is pretty significant. Damage heals naturally at 1 point per day. Drain doesn't heal naturally, and requires very powerful magic to repair. If the party is stuck in a dungeon with no access to any of these resources, the Drain is effectively permanent stat loss. Just something to keep in mind, especially for the Wisdom guy.

[Eldariel]

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions, Eldariel.
I also think Legion Devils are very fun. I used them against a party once abord pirate ship - worrying about the sure-striking devils and the Balance checks made everyone very tense. I'll take a look on the arrow demons... but do you have any specific advice to optimize kytons?

Kytons make for great lockdown specialists. Switch out the feats for e.g. Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer & Stand Still and they're pretty good. Toss them a level of Crusader (buying 'em Elite Array in the process), get Thicket of Blades and profit. Fitting some damage/to hit bonuses in there could be nice too.

But yeah, couple of dancing Chains attacking, Tripping (they do just fine even without Improved Trip with the sheer volume of checks, and it's hard to try and countertrip a chain floating in the air), stalling and overall, being a general nuisance, Kytons themselves defending and smashing with maneuvers while attacking and regenerating and so on; quite nice. If it extends its own chains, it threatens a respectable 25' area (by extending them by 15' from their normal 10'; Dancing Chain is able to target the Chains it wields itself just fine, and using it only takes the standard action, making it no less the wielder) and yeah.


It's a pity one cannot get 'em Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip easily, but they make for quite efficient Chain Fighters anyways, if a bit starved for bonus damage. You could, if desired, reassign their skillpoints to identification-related Knowledges and get 'em Knowledge Devotion as "hunter Kytons" for notable To Hit and Damage-bonuses (their To Hit and Damage are unimpressive, in the end). Still, Elite Array alone should help in that regard. Law Devotion (given they're Lawful) is another reasonable option.

[krossbow]

IIRC, in tables of the most under-CR'd critters of each CR, the contest for "nastiest published CR 3 monster" usually is a toss-up between Allip and That Damn Crab.

(Other noteworthy classics include the Kobold Adept 4 at CR 1, the Shadow at CR 2, the Adamantine Clockwork Horror at CR 10 (?), and the Planetar at CR 16. That last one is my personal favorite.)

Not recognizing that damn crab; mind jogging my memory? Or giving me the MM name?

[Foryn Gilnith]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a

These forums are the first result on google for "that damn crab", bizarrely.

[krossbow]

damn, that thing would rape a party of level 2s or 3s. You can't even save or die it into oblivion due to the vermin traits. I guess you could Grease it, but that would only buy you time.

[Draz74]

damn, that thing would rape a party of level 2s or 3s. You can't even save or die it into oblivion due to the vermin traits. I guess you could Grease it, but that would only buy you time.

Yeah ... the only reason it's not a walking TPK is because it's described as absconding to its dinner once it has one or two PCs safely in its clutches.

[Eldariel]

I'm curious. What became of this? Did you have a chance to punish your players yet?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, if you really wanted nasty allips, there's a few feats which can help...

not sure if Spellstitched qualifies, since it's technically incorporeal, but I'm sure you can think of several ways to beef these up... made by a Dread Necro in a Desecreated, Unhallowed location...

[The Cat Goddess]

I expect the allips to hit less because we're using the defense bonus rules, and so touch AC is a lot higher.

You did read that the Class Defense Bonus doesn't stack with your Armor Bonus, right? (Making it infinitely more valuable to a Wizard, Sorcerer, Monk or Wild-shaped Druid.)

[Lycanthromancer]

You can't spell-stitch allips unless you use that spell that forces them to become corporeal (don't recall the name off hand...force manifest, maybe?).

However, you can technically spell-stitch ghosts, since they're corporeal on the ethereal plane (you just have to plane shift there before doing the work).