Critique this Cleric build please.

[NekoJoker]

Ok, so i have been doing this Cloistered cleric build for some time now, and tryed as much as I could to make it as optimized as possible, now... before I put this to the test on an actual campaign i want you guys to tell me if this may be really good... (I humbly apologize for the wall of text)

I am going to play a homebrew Half-Drow cleric of Sehanine moonbow.
My domins would be Trickery and Travel. In adition to teh Knowledge domain already granted by the Cloistered Cleric.

NOTE: i am working on a homebrewed feat (let's call it Favored of the Deity) that would work pretty much like the precocious apprentice feat from the Complete Arcane (this is just for early entry into Church Inquisitor, and i'm not entirely sure if this is worth it).

We are starting the campaign around 5th level, my companions would be a Raptorian Werewolf ranger and a Wizard. I plan to go the Divine metamagic and Persist spell route, possibly going into chain spell for massive buffing... so this is very feat intensive I have not allocated feats yet, so insight on that will be gratly appreciated.

We are open to most sourcebooks, All complete series, and all core, but very little from Dragon magazine (mostly what appears on Dragon Compendium)
Also, WE HAVE A STRICT POLICY OF NO TOME OF BATTLE, PLEASE DO NOT HIJACK THIS THREAD WITH ToB DISCUSSIONS.

We also work with flaws for extra feats (only 1), and character traits for minor buffs on skills.


The skeleton build:

lvl 1 - Divine Devotee Zone of truth// Know Domain, Lore
lvl 2 - Will +3 // Nothing
Lvl 3 Church Inqui 1 // Detect Evil, Inqui domain
Lvl 4 Church Inqui 2 // Immune to charms
Lvl 5 Church Inqui 3 // Pierce illusion
Lvl 6 Church Inqui 4 // Pierce disguise
Lvl 7 Church Inqui 5 // Immune to compulsion
Lvl 8 Church Inqui 6 // Force shapechange
Lvl 9 Divine Oracl 1 // Oracle DOmain, Scry Bonus
Lvl 10 Divine Oracl 2 // Prescient sense, trap sense +1
Lvl 11 Divine Oracl 3 // divination enhancement
Lvl 12 Divine Oracl 4 // uncanny dodge (Dex to AC)
Lvl 13 Divine Oracl 5 // Trap sense +2
Lvl 14 Divine Oracl 6 // Improved Uncanny dodge (no flanking)
lvl 15 Prest Pal 1 // Detect evil, smite evil 1/day, turn undead
lvl 16 Prest Pal 2 // Divine grace, lay on hands, special mount
lvl 17 Contemplative 1 // Bonus domain, divine health

NOTE: On regards to the prestige paladin choice, well... I wanted to use a feat from the dragon compendium called Serenity that lets me use Wis instead of Cha to all related paladin abilities.

In addition, i'm interested in the dweomerkeeper (or whatever way this is spelled) but don't know how to sneak this into the build.

Also I am having second thoughts on the Church inquisitor... since the Paladin of Freedom (UA variant) pretty much gives me the same bonuses...

at any rate, I am hoping you guys can enlighten me a bit here.

thx in advanced

[Critical]

I'd advice thinking before going into Church Inquisitor, when having a Cleric-level dependant ability, such as Travel domain's granted ability. FoM's always nice. Also... What feats are you planning? Any particular role you want to fill? (Melee'er, Blaster, Primary Caster etc.)

[Greenish]

I'd advice thinking before going into Church Inquisitor, when having a Cleric-level dependant ability, such as Travel domain's granted ability.

He might've swapped it out for Devotion.

[Pluto]

I don't like Precocious Apprentice. Every build is feat-starved. As long as you don't blow caster levels, a level is cheaper than a feat. The level you spent on Force Shapechange -- a feat of only situational use, which can often be replicated by Dispel Magic -- could be used for Knowledge Devotion, Quicken Spell, Power Attack, Extra Turning or Holy Warrior, which you'll use in every encounter, every day.

Likewise, I wouldn't bother with Serenity on this character -- Charisma is going to be the stat that gives you the greatest returns for the first 10 levels of your career; you'd do well to keep it at or above your Wisdom until you hit ECL 15. And at that point, it would be impractical to switch back.

And I hope you're using the Frog God's Fane for Divine Oracle.

I like Church Inquisitor; I just don't like the early entrance. The Inquisition Domain is fantastic (or it could be swapped for Knowledge Devotion, which is also very good) and its <3/4 BA d8HD 4+Int skill> framework is very nice.

I don't like that you're going to have to wade through level 5 without any usable feats (well, except Extend). So whether it means switching races, domains or delaying CI, I would want DMM (Persist) to be possible from the start.

If you really want to milk DMM (Persist), you'll want more Turn Attempts. This could mean the Azurin Cleric/Sacred Exorcist double-dipping trick; it could mean finding feat slots for Extra Turning and Craft Rod; there are a lot of ways, but your build doesn't seem to have room.

[NekoJoker]

Thxs for the quick response, now, some feedback.

Also... What feats are you planning? Any particular role you want to fill? (Melee'er, Blaster, Primary Caster etc.)

I want to be a primary caster, and party buffer later on with DMM: Persist and possibly with Chain spell, haven't decided on it yet, if it fits I'll go with it

I hope you're using the Frog God's Fane for Divine Oracle.

would you explain a bit more about that?

[Keld Denar]

Frog God's Fane is a magical location in Complete Scoundrel (page 145). Its a shrine to Wastri, a racist god in the form of a giant frog. Visiting it and making a DC15 Int check basically gives the character Skill Focus: Knowledge(History), Skill Focus: Knowledge(Nature), or Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion). If you are creating a character above 1st level, you can have that character pay 2000g and count having visited the site and made the check as part of your character background, thus gaining the benefit.

Its designed to reduce the feat tax on certain early PrCs like Loremaster and Divine Oracle by converting the feat cost to a gold cost.

[NekoJoker]

Frog God's Fane is a magical location in Complete Scoundrel (page 145). Its a shrine to Wastri, a racist god in the form of a giant frog. Visiting it and making a DC15 Int check basically gives the character Skill Focus: Knowledge(History), Skill Focus: Knowledge(Nature), or Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion). If you are creating a character above 1st level, you can have that character pay 2000g and count having visited the site and made the check as part of your character background, thus gaining the benefit.

Its designed to reduce the feat tax on certain early PrCs like Loremaster and Divine Oracle by converting the feat cost to a gold cost.

THAT'S DAMN GOOD!

As a matter of fact I never heard of it, now 'll check the ComScoundrel to get that approved.

Now, besides Extra turning and Nightsticks, any way of geting 15+ turn attempts in order to fuel the Divine Meta?

[DueceEsMachine]

Why dump Charisma when you can embrace it?
Dynamic Priest - Legend of the Twins sourcebook - use your charisma instead of wisdom for divine casting, bonus spells, and what level you can cast. The save Dc is still wisdom based, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Edit:
Get 15 + turn/ day to fuel Dmm? Easy. Be an elf. If your Dm allows retraining, just retrain the four Martial Weapon Proficiencies they get as a race for Extra turning. A 10 or higher charisma, and you're at 16+ by 1st level.

[Keld Denar]

Unfortunately, Divine Metamagic explicitly calls out Turn/Rebuke Undead, rather than just a Turn/Rebuke attempt like some other [Divine] feats. That means you can't use Elemental turning, Vermin turning, Plant turning, or any other subtypes of turning you can pick up with ACFs or domains.

A Relequary Holy Symbol (MIC) gives 1-3 extra TU attempts, depending on which qualifiers you qualify for. 2 of them are pretty easy to hit. Best thing is that its only 1000g. The Undeath domain grants Extra Turning, and the Planning domain grants Extend Spell (prereq for Persist)

If you took Leadership and had a Cleric/Heirophant cohort, you could have him load up on Extra Turning feats and use the Heirophant ability to grant TU attempts to others to bestow your cleric with all of his TU attempts. This is kinda jenky and might earn a stern reproof from your DM, though.

If you want to do the whole DMM: Persist thing, check out Complete Mage. There is a cheap ring (Ring of Enduring Arcana, 6000g) that gives all of your spells +4 CL to resist dispels. Any other CL bumps you can attain will make it even harder for foes to dispel your glorious buffage.

[Pluto]

Unfortunately, Divine Metamagic explicitly calls out Turn/Rebuke Undead, rather than just a Turn/Rebuke attempt like some other [Divine] feats. That means you can't use Elemental turning, Vermin turning, Plant turning, or any other subtypes of turning you can pick up with ACFs or domains.

If this is a reference to the Azurin sub level (I don't see any other references to that sort of hijinks):

"An azurin cleric can use this ability in place of turn or rebuke undead to qualify for any divine feat, and can spend daily uses of this feat to power divine feats as if they were daily uses of turn or rebuke undead."

Take the sub level, get turning elsewhere => double your base attempts.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

While not really tied to working the DMM angle, I have found myself favorably biased towards Cloistered clerics taking the Kobold domain. Something about a buffer, healbot, and minesweeper (with secondary face and skill monkey traits [especially if allowed to swap Lore for a Cleric version of Bardic Knack]) all rolled into one makes me feel like a whole squad's worth of support rolled into one.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I say you'd be better off without the precosious apprentice feat and just go Cloistered Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 5(last really good class ability). You qualify for PrC Pally so take it now then, at level 11 you can go straight into contemplative. If your god has a fourth decent domain go straight to contemplative 6 otherwise contemplative is a great 1 level dip.

If you don't go to contemplative 6 take PrC 3 since it grants a level of casting, aura of courage, divine health and, +1 BAB, +1 Ref, +1 Will.

After that I don't have any real specific advice. The Azurin for a turning substitute/gain turning from sacred exorcist seems like it could work out well for you. Consider looking into Knight of the Raven for your remaining levels it's full BAB, loses 1 caster level and gets a cool raven you can cast spells through as well as a few other things.

[okpokalypse]

If you want to do the whole DMM: Persist thing, check out Complete Mage. There is a cheap ring (Ring of Enduring Arcana, 6000g) that gives all of your spells +4 CL to resist dispels. Any other CL bumps you can attain will make it even harder for foes to dispel your glorious buffage.

Also, look to Libris Mortis - Item: Nightstick. It adds 4 Turn Undead per Day. They only cost 7,500 gp, and require Craft Rod and Extra Turning to create (at a cost of 3,750 gp and 300xp). If you want to be an uber-persister they're awesome.

Furthermore, take Divine Spell Power (+1 - +4 CL) and get a Bead of Karma (+4 CL) in addition to the Ring of Enduring Arcana and you're spells will effectively be +9 to +12 Caster Levels higher than your Class Level for Dispelling Purposes. If you've got a good Cha, you could usually get it consistantly +10 or more. That means that, without significant CL boosts, and Equal-Level caster cannot dispel you.

[gbprime]

Unfortunately, Divine Metamagic explicitly calls out Turn/Rebuke Undead, rather than just a Turn/Rebuke attempt like some other [Divine] feats. That means you can't use Elemental turning, Vermin turning, Plant turning, or any other subtypes of turning you can pick up with ACFs or domains.

For divine metamagic, sure. Bu I haven't seen a DM yet who wouldn't allow the Air Devotion feat to be powered off the Rebuke Air uses from the Air Domain power. Ditto with the other elemental devotions and plants. If you take a devotion feat along those lines, ask about it.

[marjan]

Edit:
Get 15 + turn/ day to fuel Dmm? Easy. Be an elf. If your Dm allows retraining, just retrain the four Martial Weapon Proficiencies they get as a race for Extra turning. A 10 or higher charisma, and you're at 16+ by 1st level.

You can't retrain your racial feats. As for Precocious Apprentice feat - you can retrain it after the first level of Church Inquisitor since you'll be fulfilling requirements with its +1 spellcasting.