[3.5] Shadowcraft Mages and Augemented Spell Lists

[Keld Denar]

From a previous thread to prevent gumming up his thead.

Shadow Miracle is bunk because of the wording. Its on YOUR spell list, not THE sorcerer/wizard list, and the Shadow Illusion ability EXPLICITLY references THE sorcerer/wizard list and thus doesn't work. Why do people insist on propagting this? There are lots of ways to get a spell on YOUR spell list, that doesn't make them sorcerer/wizard spells. If you want to discuss this, start a new thread though.

Because it doesn't reference THE sorceror/wizard list. It references YOUR sorceror/wizard list.

Any spell legally added to your list is part of your list. If you legally add miracle (via domain), it's on your list. If you legally add all cleric spells to your list (Rainbow Servant 10) then all cleric spells are part of your list.

Lists aren't immutable, and inviolate as printed. They can grow, change, and evolve, just as the game can.

Now that both views have been presented, it can be left for individuals to decide, and further debate can be made in a new thread.

I look dimly on trying to essentially cheap shot a view as the officially correct one, and then refer all further debate on it elsewhere, so as to have an unopposed view in this thread. Both sides of the coin are now visible. People can interpret as they will.

For reference

Shadow Illusion (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of his figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell. The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used.
<snip>
A shadowcraft mage can apply shadow illusion to any of the following figment spells: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image

Any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell. Period. Not cleric conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell. Not adept conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell. Not divine bard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell. Not Rainbow Servant conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell. Not Wyrm Wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell. Not "random-dude-with-Arcane-Disciple" conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell.

I understand that spell lists are mutable, for an individual. If you add a spell to your spell list, it grants you a certain amount of privelidge. You can use spell trigger items, prepare the spell in slots, or cast it spontaneously depending on your ability. It does NOT change the fact that they are not sorcerer/wizard spells. They are mearly non-sorcerer/wizard spells that you PERSONALLY are able to use.

Shadow Illusion doesn't reference the individual, though. It references the masses. If it really allowed ALL spells, then somewhere in the multiverse, there's a Rainbow Servant wizard who can scribe arcane scrollls of divine spells. Or an Arcane Disciple. Or a Wyrm Wizard, or someone who used the PHB rules for develping new spells to clone existing divine spells. Hell, you could take gain a domain and cast Domain Substitution (CChamp) to swap around your spells to any spell EVER printed at some point.

Its a slippery slope. If you can cast spells that aren't wizard/sorcerer spells off your own list, what stops you from casting wizard/sorcerer spells off Joe-the-wizard-standing-next-to-you's list? Or Bob-the-wizard-in-Sigil-who-knows-every-spell-period's list? Because it doesn't.

Spell lists were printed to stand independant of each other. A wizard spell is a wizard spell. A cleric spell is a cleric spell. A bard spell is a bard spell. A spell that isn't a sorcerer/wizard spell isn't a sorcerer/wizard spell. Ever. Even if a sorcerer or wizard can cast it. Otherwise EVER spell would be a sorcerer/wizard spell, because somewhere out there in the multiverse, there is a wizard or sorcerer who CAN cast it, and that would pretty much defeat the whole purpose of having spell lists.

[The Glyphstone]

Just for completeness, shouldn't you include the text of Arcane Disciple?

[Yuki Akuma]

Here, let me.

Benefit: Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed for that feat.
You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell's level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat.
Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level.

Hmmmmmm.

The Shadow Magic description does not say a spell from THE Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. It says a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. When you take Arcane Disciple (Luck), Miracle becomes a Sorcerer/Wizard spell for you because it has been added to your arcane class spell list.

You seem to have this personal vendetta about this particular combo. It's really rather worrying. Yes, it's cheesy. No, that doesn't mean it doesn't work - plenty of cheesy combos work fine while being totally ludicrous.

[Private-Prinny]

If the argument for use of Shadow Miracles is "But it's on your spell list," then logically, a Wizard who bans Evocation shouldn't be able to use Shadow Illusion to mimic Evocations, since banning a school removes it from your spell list for all intents and purposes.

[marjan]

If the argument for use of Shadow Miracles is "But it's on your spell list," then logically, a Wizard who bans Evocation shouldn't be able to use Shadow Illusion to mimic Evocations, since banning a school removes it from your spell list for all intents and purposes.

That's different, by RAW. Specialization doesn't say anything about removing spells from your list, just that you cannot learn them, prepare them, or use spell-completion and spell-trigger items with such spells.

Spell lists were printed to stand independant of each other.

That would be general rule. Arcane Disciple is specific and specific trumps general.

[Swok]

"Technically removed" is not the same as removed. They're there, just unavailable.

[Private-Prinny]

At the very least, a Shadow Miracle should only be able to mimic Conjuration or Evocation spells. Shadow Heal would just be silly.

[Yuki Akuma]

Heal is a Conjuration spell.

But assuming you meant giving it the same restrictions as Shadow Magic in general... why? Miracle is an Evocation spell. It can mimic any other spell. It's still an Evocation spell when it does this.

If you use Miracle to cast Orb of Acid (for some reason) when you have Spell Focus (Conjuration)? Nope, sorry, the DC doesn't get increased by 1, because it's an Evocation spell.

Also, school specialisation says nothing about altering your spell list - just that you can't prepare spells of your prohibited schools, or cast them from spell completion and spell trigger items.

Technically you can still cast them. Wish has a special rule that says you can't use it to duplicate prohibited spells of over 7th level (or over 5th if they're not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list). Miracle has no such restriction...

[Private-Prinny]

Heal is a Conjuration spell.

But assuming you meant giving it the same restrictions as Shadow Magic in general... why? Miracle is an Evocation spell. It can mimic any other spell. It's still an Evocation spell when it does this.

If you use Miracle to cast Orb of Acid (for some reason) when you have Spell Focus (Conjuration)? Nope, sorry, the DC doesn't get increased by 1, because it's an Evocation spell.

Heal is Conjuration (Healing). It's not the right subtype.

And if you, as a DM, think that you should be able to teleport vast distances by using an illusion, something that doesn't actually happen, then fine.

[Yuki Akuma]

Heal is Conjuration (Healing). It's not the right subtype.

You just stipulated 'Conjuration'.

And if you, as a DM, think that you should be able to teleport vast distances by using an illusion, something that doesn't actually happen, then fine.

Um.

Actually, Shadow subtype spells do happen. They are real effects - they take real matter from the Plane of Shadow to mimic other spells.

What does what I would or would not allow as a DM have to do with what the rules as written say?

[The Glyphstone]

You just stipulated 'Conjuration'.



Um.

Actually, Shadow subtype spells do happen. They are real effects - they take real matter from the Plane of Shadow to mimic other spells.

What does what I would or would not allow as a DM have to do with what the rules as written say?

Shadow Walk is a weird example, it always seemed to me that it should be in the same school as Teleport/Planeshift, since it involves planar travel.

A better citation, the actual definition of the Shadow subtype.

[Yuki Akuma]

I just thought responding to "Illusion spells should not be able to teleport you vast distances" with an Illusion spell with the explicit purpose of teleporting you vast distances was hilarious.

[Private-Prinny]

I just thought responding to "Illusion spells should not be able to teleport you vast distances" with an Illusion spell with the explicit purpose of teleporting you vast distances was hilarious.

Except that it's not. Highway speed =/= teleportation. Still, I should've used a better example.

[Akal Saris]

And more to the point, most of the higher level slots for a SCM will be shadow spells with 100% or more reality. So if an illusion is 100% as effective as the real spell, for all purposes, it is the real spell? I don't know.

Regarding shadow miracles: I think they work for a sorcerer or wizard, though not a beguiler. It's not really a slippery slope because most rational people can distinguish the line between "it's a sorc/wiz spell for me" and "it's a sorc/wiz spell for some random hypothetical rainbow servant sorcerer." Most people anyhow.

That said, Miracle is already an exception to the general rules since it represents direct divine intercession. Any DM would be perfectly within her limits to say that you can't fully represent that kind of power with an illusion, even one at 120% hyper-reality.

[Yuki Akuma]

That said, Miracle is already an exception to the general rules since it represents direct divine intercession. Any DM would be perfectly within her limits to say that you can't fully represent that kind of power with an illusion, even one at 120% hyper-reality.

Alternatively, considering you're an Arcane Disciple and actually have a patron god, it works just as well as a real Miracle?

Sure, the god can probably tell is an illusionary Miracle but do you think that would stop them from helping their Arcane Disciple? We're talking about the servant of a god who can cast ninth level spells here. The god is going to take notice.

[olentu]

Allow me to pose a question. Where is the definition of what a sorcerer or wizard spell is. I could see several possible things that could work as evidenced by the differing viewpoints in this thread but I am asking what if any is the basis for the position put forth or if the various sides are just making up a definition and working off of that.

[Private-Prinny]

Allow me to pose a question. Where is the definition of what a sorcerer or wizard spell is. I could see several possible things that could work as evidenced by the differing viewpoints in this thread but I am asking what if any is the basis for the position put forth or if the various sides are just making up a definition and working off of that.

This is the accepted definition of Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. The problem is the vague definition of Arcane Disciple, which Yuki posted earlier.

[olentu]

This is the accepted definition of Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. The problem is the vague definition of Arcane Disciple, which Yuki posted earlier.

I did not ask what the definition of the sorcerer/wizard spell list is I asked for the definition of what a sorcerer or wizard spell is.

[Akal Saris]

Alternatively, considering you're an Arcane Disciple and actually have a patron god, it works just as well as a real Miracle?

Sure, the god can probably tell is an illusionary Miracle but do you think that would stop them from helping their Arcane Disciple? We're talking about the servant of a god who can cast ninth level spells here. The god is going to take notice.

Maybe the god wouldn't mind, especially since most deities with the Luck portfolio are pretty chill - odds are your SCM will be worshipping Baravar Cloakshadow, Dallah Thaun, or Tymora, if using standard deities. But there's any number of reasons why the god might mind - maybe she only grants miracles to a specific group of people like Mystra's Seven Sisters, or she simply doesn't have the power to grant miracles so often, or maybe it's just not possible to create a miracle from the Plane of Shadow. I mean, I understand your argument, but I think mine is just as valid for different reasons.

[marjan]

... maybe it's just not possible to create a miracle from the Plane of Shadow...

According to RAW, it's possible. I'm not saying that you have to allow it in games, but that comes down to Rule 0.

[Divide by Zero]

I did not ask what the definition of the sorcerer/wizard spell list is I asked for the definition of what a sorcerer or wizard spell is.

A sorcerer or wizard spell is any spell that appears on the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

Arcane Disciple adds spells to "your class spell list." Assuming your class is sorcerer or wizard, that would be the sorcerer spell list. It's only the list as far as you are concerned, but it's still the list.

[Yuki Akuma]

I did not ask what the definition of the sorcerer/wizard spell list is I asked for the definition of what a sorcerer or wizard spell is.

The game does not specifically come out and say "a Sorcerer/Wizard spell is x" because, quite frankly, there is absolutely no need for the game to say that.

The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is, surprisingly enough, the list of Sorcerer/Wizard spells. A Sorcerer/Wizard spell is a spell that is listed in the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

If you somehow manage to add a spell onto your personal spell list, and you're a Sorcerer or Wizard, it is, for you, a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Because it's on your personal Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

If you're a Beguiler and you take Arcane Disciple, it's a Beguiler spell, so it won't work with Shadow Magic, which specifically says it duplicates Sorcerer or Wizard spells.

If someone else manages to get extra spells on his Sorcerer/Wizard spell list - such as, say, through Arcane Disciple, or Rainbow Servant's capstone class ability - they can treat it as a Sorcerer/Wizard spell, because it's on their spell list, but you can't. Because for you it's not a Sorcerer/Wizard spell.

You see?

[olentu]

The game does not specifically come out and say "a Sorcerer/Wizard spell is x" because, quite frankly, there is absolutely no need for the game to say that.

The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is, surprisingly enough, the list of Sorcerer/Wizard spells. A Sorcerer/Wizard spell is a spell that is listed in the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

If you somehow manage to add a spell onto your personal spell list, and you're a Sorcerer or Wizard, it is, for you, a Sorcerer/Wizard spell. Because it's on your personal Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.

If you're a Beguiler and you take Arcane Disciple, it's a Beguiler spell, so it won't work with Shadow Magic, which specifically says it duplicates Sorcerer or Wizard spells.

Ah now see it obviously does since you believe that a spell on the personal list of a character with the sorcerer or wizard class works while on the other hand keld denar appears to believe that the spell must be on the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. Unless you are saying that you are not having a disagreement then the situation is not as clear as you say.

[marjan]

Ah now see it obviously does since you believe that a spell on the personal list of a character with the sorcerer or wizard class works while on the other hand keld denar appears to believe that the spell must be on the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. Unless you are saying that you are not having a disagreement then the situation is not as clear as you say.

As far as I can tell, it's clear to people here that any spell on sorceror/wizard list is sorceror/wizard. They are not arguing that, they are arguing weather or not Arcane Disciple adds spells to sorceror/wizard list.

[olentu]

As far as I can tell, it's clear to people here that any spell on sorceror/wizard list is sorceror/wizard. They are not arguing that, they are arguing weather or not Arcane Disciple adds spells to sorceror/wizard list.

I see it as this. A spellcaster has a personal list of spells. For keld denar just because a spell is on this list and you are a sorcerer or wizard the spell is not necessarily a sorcerer or wizard spell if it is not on the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. On the other hand yuki_akuma proposes if one is a sorcerer or wizard and a spell is one ones personal list then the spell is a sorcerer or wizard spell even if it is not on the general sorcerer/wizard spell list.

However I was given the definition of the general sorcerer/wizard spell list and at the moment I do not believe that anyone is arguing that arcane disciple adds the spells to that general list.

[Pluto]

However I was given the definition of the general sorcerer/wizard spell list and at the moment I do not believe that anyone is arguing that arcane disciple adds the spells to that general list.

Kind of.

Arcane Disciple explicitly adds domain spells to the class [read:Sorcerer/Wizard] spell list, unlike other sources of spells known (eg. Fiend-Blooded) or spell list extensions (eg. Sandshaper).

[olentu]

Kind of.

Arcane Disciple explicitly adds domain spells to the class [read:Sorcerer/Wizard] spell list, unlike other sources of spells known (eg. Fiend-Blooded) or spell list extensions (eg. Sandshaper).

So from your post I suppose you are championing the position that arcane disciple adds the spells to the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. Well if that is the case then it appears that the moment has changed with your arrival and that is a good thing as it presents more options for discussion.

[The Glyphstone]

So from your post I suppose you are championing the position that arcane disciple adds the spells to the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. Well if that is the case then it appears that the moment has changed with your arrival and that is a good thing as it presents more options for discussion.

Or, he's positing that there are three categories, not two:
1) The general sorc/wiz spell list.
2) The personal sorc/wiz spell list, modified by Arcane Disciple.
2) The personal caster's spell list, which may be 1) or 2) with the addition of certain abilities such as Sandshaper, which is worded differently than Arcane Disciple - adding them to your spell list without adding them to your class list.

[olentu]

Or, he's positing that there are three categories, not two:
1) The general sorc/wiz spell list.
2) The personal sorc/wiz spell list, modified by Arcane Disciple.
2) The personal caster's spell list, which may be 1) or 2) with the addition of certain abilities such as Sandshaper, which is worded differently than Arcane Disciple - adding them to your spell list without adding them to your class list.

I suppose but that brings up the question as to where exactly a personal sorcerer wizard spell list as opposed to the personal spell list of a sorcerer or wizard is defined to be a distinct entity.

Also since the quoted selection has me only talking about someone "arguing that arcane disciple adds the spells to that general list" I would assume that his post is talking about the general list rather then then some personal sorcerer/wizard list.

And of course all of this distracts from the question of where the definition of what a sorcerer or wizard spell is is.

[Divide by Zero]

So from your post I suppose you are championing the position that arcane disciple adds the spells to the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. Well if that is the case then it appears that the moment has changed with your arrival and that is a good thing as it presents more options for discussion.

I don't think anyone is arguing that it adds to the general list - that is, you take Arcane Disciple and suddenly every wizard and sorcerer in the world has access to it. The only argument I see is whether "your class spell list" and "the Sor/Wiz spell list" are the same thing for purposes of Shadowcraft Mage.