Supposed to Lose Fights

[TheLogman]

First, some campaign background. My players, if you're reading this (you shouldn't be), leave now.

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Hundreds of years ago, a gnome cleric who was the head of the largest group of clerics on this island attempted to create a new kind of magical armor. It was supposed to be composed of hundreds of tiny organisms that would feed on negative energy from evil clerics and then convert it into positive energy that would protect and heal the wearer. But something went horribly wrong and the organisms became a virulent disease that fed on both positive and negative energy, making it impossible to kill by normal clerical means.

So somehow the cleric managed to suppress the disease with the help of a local group of druids and copious amounts of fire.

Now, the barbarian tribes live on the land where the final showdown occurred, and every year they start a massive bonfire on the spot of the victory. The true reason they light it is lost to time (The fire actually keeps what is left and buried of the disease suppressed), and the barbarians just know they are celebrating some great victory.

Enter the PC's. This year, Disease Mages who have discovered the secret of the buried disease are leading a orcish raid on the Barbarians. The PC's don't know any of the history, only that the ritual is going on and the orcs are coming with the disease mages to stop it.

So, in order for the campaign to really kick off, the ritual has to fail, spreading the disease to the world, and starting the PC's on an epic journey of fighting the disease and eventually eradicating it by causing a dormant volcano to explode. Or at least this is my plan.

And now we come to my question: How do I make the PC's lose, but in a way that is both fun and fair?

The PC's have already seen the disease mages use illusions and invisibility, so they will probably set up safeguards against that.

In addition, the PC's have an amulet that I have set the precedent that it warns the PC's of the presence of the Disease Mages.

Do I just downplay the importance of the ritual, and then when they ask the barbarians to not do the ritual and the disease bursts out, then it's the PC's fault?

[Flickerdart]

The disease mages can call down a storm of such power that no fire can be lit, thereby obviating the need for a must-lose combat.

[kirbsys]

My recommendation would be to make it difficult for the PCs to figure out the importance of the ritual. If their primary goal is to keep the barbarian tribe alive, they won't be so worried about the bonfire getting lit. A great way to do this is to make the attack occur just before the lighting, that way the PCs can win the battle but lose the war so to speak by simply not being able to kill off the mages and orcs and keep the fire lighters safe.

[Jack_Simth]

In this specific case, you don't need the PC's to lose, so much as you need them to leave the field of battle, and to avoid having the fire lit.

There's many ways to do this - from the mentioned storm, to making the apparent goal being to protect the tribe. A feint against the tribe itself (assuming the ritual is done some distance from the village) would be quite effective.

Edit:
Also, in general, fights the PC's are supposed to lose are a bad idea - if the party doesn't know they're supposed to run or surrender, you're liable to end up with a TPK.

[TheLogman]

Yeah, maybe a supposed to lost fight isn't the right phrase right here.

I really just want them to fail in the objective.

I think I'm going to just play off of whatever problem there is in their battle plan.

I'll make the ritual require magic users, and then if they take the magic users to use in the fight, the ritual will fail right there.

If they don't check for illusions or invisibility, despite having seen it before, then a disease mage will sneak over to the fire and disrupt it.

If they delay the ritual, then it will be too late.

And if all else fails, I'll call in some intense magic from the disease mages. I like the storm idea.

[mucat]

One very useful tool in your arsenal is the fact that nothing about the campaign world is immutable truth until it's revealed to the PCs. So if you want the result "ceremony failed; disease is unleashed" you can arrange so that it happens no matter the outcome of the PCs' efforts...while still leaving the appearance (and the reality, within the gameworld itself) that their actions made a major difference.

For example:
Say that the ceremony is going on at three different locations. The PCs are at one of them, trying to thwart the disease mages.

If the PCs succeed:
The ceremony that the PCs were defending is carried out successfully. The other two ceremonies, though, are sabotaged. The disease is unleashed, but would have been much worse -- apocalypic, even -- if the PCs had not made sure at least one ceremony succeeded.

So the plot is where you want it, and the PCs' victory did make a major difference.

If the PCs fail:
The ceremony that the PCs were protecting fails, and the disease is unleashed. Whether or not the other two ceremonies were also disrupted is up to you; as long as you haven't already revealed how many ceremonies must fail for the disease to spread, you're free to determine that detail now. Whatever your choice, though, the crisis would have been much less severe, or averted entirely, if the PCs' ceremony had succeeded.

Again, the plot is where you want it, and the PCs' failure did make a major difference.


No one but you need ever know that the plot would have ended up in the same place no matter which route it took.

[erikun]

This doesn't sound too difficult. I mean, the orcs are here to fight the barbarians. The mages are here to support the orcs. The PCs are here to support the barbarians. The key is that the mages are also here to break up the bonfire, which is something the PCs are not likely to notice. If they fail to recognize the threat, then the ritual is despoiled and everything goes according to plan. They will "automatically lose" simply by not knowing to keep it safe.

If the players recognize that the ritual is the intented target and make steps to protect it, then do not make them automatically lose the fight anyways. In this situation, they haven't really won as much as delayed the loss. Give them a chance to look into why the mages would stage a raid on a remote barbarian villiage in order to kick over a fire. Coming up with a way to premanently seal/destroy the disease before it is released can be just as interested and getting rid of it after it has been released.

[Mastikator]

The disease mages can call down a storm of such power that no fire can be lit, thereby obviating the need for a must-lose combat.

The mages don't even need to be overpowered, just use their powers smart.
They could simply know that they might be interrupted and are prepared with grease, glitter dust, hold person and other fun stuff that lets the mages finish the ritual while the PC's watch helplessly.
Then the ritual is done, the PCs are spared because the mages scoff at how weak they are and tells them that they now have to live with knowing that they didn't stop the disease. Or that the disease will kill them soon anyway.

Making the disease mages extremely overpowered might just make the players feel useless and unengaged by the campaign.
Also, hinting the players that surviving is more important than winning, is also useful.

[awa]

depending on how fragile the ritual is a spell like sleet storm could mess it up with a single standard action