[3.5] Which Skill To Use?

[Drakevarg]

Well, against my best efforts I've decided to start DMing again, on account of it being too much fun. With that in mind I've started working on the first quest, which is simple murder mystery involving bandits.

The question I have is that what skill would be best to use in identifying the particular make of a dagger, and what poison was used on it. I had considered Craft (Blacksmithing) for the dagger and Craft (Alchemy) for the poison, but Craft is apparently only for making stuff, not identifying it. I had also considered Appraise or Search, but again I'm not sure which is more appropriate for this task.

[IonDragon]

I'm not sure what you mean about identifying the dagger. It's a dagger. That should be readily apearant unless you players are remarkably thick.

As for identifying the poison, Alchemy (which is not a craft skill) should serve the purpose.

[Flickerdart]

Appraise, I'd say, is the most appropriate for the dagger: a thorough knowledge of the value of things gives you a good eye for brands and makes. The poison, however, would probably be Craft (Poisonmaking) if not Knowledge (Dungeoneering).

[Eldonauran]

I think he means identifying where the dagger was made or something like that. If that is the case, Knowledge (local) or a bardic knowledge check should do it.

[Drakevarg]

I'm not sure what you mean about identifying the dagger. It's a dagger. That should be readily apearant unless you players are remarkably thick.

As for identifying the poison, Alchemy (which is not a craft skill) should serve the purpose.

Yes, but there's a huge difference between "silver dagger" and "silver dagger of a particular make that just so happens to be the common sidearm of most wizards in this campaign world."

@Flickerdart: Yeah, I was thinking appraise for the dagger as well. But Craft can be used for identification? Dungeoneering seems to be more for specifically cave-related stuff. Which weapon poison really isn't.

[IonDragon]

Yes, but there's a huge difference between "silver dagger" and "silver dagger of a particular make that just so happens to be the common sidearm of most wizards in this campaign world."

@Flickerdart: Yeah, I was thinking appraise for the dagger as well. But Craft can be used for identification? Dungeoneering seems to be more for specifically cave-related stuff. Which weapon poison really isn't.

You're running the game. You want it to be identified with Craft, then do it. I think the real question is, does anyone in your group take Craft skills?

I'd do Appraise, if it was me.

[nedz]

I would probably use the Craft skill since its knowledge about making the dagger. Some kind of Profession skill might be more appropriate e.g. Profession(Arms Dealer). Or you could make up a Knowledge skill, but that would probably be a tad over specialised. On the other hand something like Knowledge(History) or Knowledge(Nobility) might fit your setting, but only you would know if that was appropriate.
Appraise would just tell you how much it was worth.
As already mentioned Bardic Knowledge should work.

[Drakevarg]

I would probably use the Craft skill since its knowledge about making the dagger. Some kind of Profession skill might be more appropriate e.g. Profession(Arms Dealer). Or you could make up a Knowledge skill, but that would probably be a tad over specialised. On the other hand something like Knowledge(History) or Knowledge(Nobility) might fit your setting, but only you would know if that was appropriate.
Appraise would just tell you how much it was worth.
As already mentioned Bardic Knowledge should work.

Emphasis mine.

Logically speaking, you can't identify something's worth without knowing what it is. Appraise is supposed to help you identify what something is, and conclude it's worth based on that.

It's not like you can just pick up an ancient relic and say "Well, as far as I can tell, it's a doohickey. But I can tell you that it's market value is EXACTLY 3027gp."

[Curmudgeon]

Ever watch Antiques Roadshow? Their experts can tell you all about how, when, and where some old thing was made, and that knowledge is key to figuring out the item's value. Appraise is the right skill here, I think.

[ThunderCat]

Does it have to be one skill? Craft and appraise could both tell you what it's made off, how well it's made, and the brand of the creator, and craft alone tell you the specific technique. Knowledge: geography could tell you where in the world it's from and knowledge: local could tell you the cultural significance. Knowledge: arcana/religion would reveal if it's connected to an arcane/religious organisation of some sort, knowledge: history could be used if it has historical relevance, and bardic knowledge would be a mix of it all.

Think of it as crossing a stream. You can swim over. You can jump over. You can get a rope attached (via either a roped arrow or a team mate) somewhere on the other side, and then climb under it, or balance on top of it. You could use various spells or magical items. You could build a bridge. The actual skill isn't important, as long as it gets the job done.

If the knife has a design that's typically used by a guild of wizards, both knowledge: local (if the guild has a role in the local society), knowledge: arcana and bardic knowledge could be relevant. If it's made from an usual material, the relevant craft skill should be, well, relevant. If items like this are highly sought after, characters with appraise would be able to tell. If it has historical significance, knowledge: history is obvious. If it has historical significance as an arcane symbol, both characters with knowledge: history and knowledge: arcana would have heard of it.

My advice is to take the knowledge you have about the dagger (and the poison, though that's more clear-cut alchemy), and decide which parts of it would be attainable with which skill. If some part would be attainable with more than one skill (quite likely), you can give the description a different spin depending on which skill the players use, even though the information is practically identical. You can also let the players decide for themselves what to roll, and reward them for coming up with an original, yet plausible, use of a skill.

[Krazddndfreek]

For the dagger it should definitely be Appraise or some related knowledge skill depending on where the dagger came from. Knowledge (local) springs to mind. For the poison I strongly suggest Knowledge (nature). Alchemy or craft (poisonmaking) comes a close second. Or you could use any of the three.

EDIT: What he said

[Drakevarg]

Does it have to be one skill? Craft and appraise could both tell you what it's made off, how well it's made, and the brand of the creator, and craft alone tell you the specific technique. Knowledge: geography could tell you where in the world it's from and knowledge: local could tell you the cultural significance. Knowledge: arcana/religion would reveal if it's connected to an arcane/religious organisation of some sort, knowledge: history could be used if it has historical relevance, and bardic knowledge would be a mix of it all.

Think of it as crossing a stream. You can swim over. You can jump over. You can get a rope attached (via either a roped arrow or a team mate) somewhere on the other side, and then climb under it, or balance on top of it. You could use various spells or magical items. You could build a bridge. The actual skill isn't important, as long as it gets the job done.

If the knife has a design that's typically used by a guild of wizards, both knowledge: local (if the guild has a role in the local society), knowledge: arcana and bardic knowledge could be relevant. If it's made from an usual material, the relevant craft skill should be, well, relevant. If items like this are highly sought after, characters with appraise would be able to tell. If it has historical significance, knowledge: history is obvious. If it has historical significance as an arcane symbol, both characters with knowledge: history and knowledge: arcana would have heard of it.

My advice is to take the knowledge you have about the dagger (and the poison, though that's more clear-cut alchemy), and decide which parts of it would be attainable with which skill. If some part would be attainable with more than one skill (quite likely), you can give the description a different spin depending on which skill the players use, even though the information is practically identical. You can also let the players decide for themselves what to roll, and reward them for coming up with an original, yet plausible, use of a skill.

You, sir, win the thread. I award you a cookie.

I also considered the fact that different areas of expertise might lead to the same conclusion more readily. For example, a Knowledge (Arcana) check might be easier than an Appraise check since a merchant might have seen one or two before and knows what it is if he thinks hard enough, but a wizard might actually have an identical dagger on his belt RIGHT NOW, so he'd probably think of it sooner.

[awa]

also consider what skills your pcs have if they have no chance of learning the information it mights as well not be there

[Swordgleam]

I'd look at it this way: if one of your PCs says, "I try to use Skill X to find out more about the dagger," how comfortable do you feel telling them, "No, that skill doesn't work for that?" Repeat for each skill you're considering.

If that means multiple skills are applicable, so be it. Maybe Craft(weaponsmithing) tells you about the material and quality of the dagger and the professionalism of the maker, Knowledge(Dungeoneering) tells you that it was recently made and is commonly used by wizards, and Appraise tells you how well it's made and how much it's probably worth, at least based on materials and craftsmanship.

[ThunderCat]

You, sir, win the thread. I award you a cookie.

It's ma'am, actually (btw, why is it that sir sounds cool, and ma'am just sounds old in the completely uncool way? ).

I also considered the fact that different areas of expertise might lead to the same conclusion more readily. For example, a Knowledge (Arcana) check might be easier than an Appraise check since a merchant might have seen one or two before and knows what it is if he thinks hard enough, but a wizard might actually have an identical dagger on his belt RIGHT NOW, so he'd probably think of it sooner.

That's how my group use to play it. We also sometimes work with different checks giving bonuses or rerolls on other kinds of checks.

For instance, we were once in an abandoned underground city, and we'd already failed the history check (on the city) and arcana check (on the magical aura surrounding it). Then one player asked to roll streetwise (so see if the character remembered any local legends about the place, or stories about unusual occurrences in the area), and even though the DM hadn't thought of that possibility, it was allowed because it sounded reasonable. The player succeeded and the DM ruled that the information about strange phenomenons surrounding the area (which were no doubt made up on the spot) was enough to cause the previous arcana check to succeed, giving the players a basic idea about the nature of the enchantment surrounding the city.

Later, a player rolled dungeoning and was told that judging on the architecture, the city probably wasn't built by subterranean creatures, and also, the stones of the city were different from the surrounding rock, and appeared unaffected by water, fungus, and general decay (this information was completely irrelevant, but it added flavour and made the player feel competent). Then we came across some images, an another player rolled nature and was told that the style was typical for hobgoblins, and this information gave the player who first failed a history check a second chance (at an easier DC) to make the connection to an ancient hobgoblin empire, and so on, and so on.

The only problem with this approach, is that it often gives the players so many rolls or bonuses that they'll end up with all the information almost no matter what (at least if they're creative enough). If you want the players to have the knowledge, this is great because it allows them to succeed while still feeling they worked for it (the hallmark of a good challenge), but it can become a bit predictable in the long run if it always happens. Increasing the DCs can even it out, so the players have more attempts, but less chance of individual attempts succeeding, but this can make players without a high modifier in the skill feel less useful, and make players with high modifiers feel like they're being punished.

I suggest letting them have the information eventually, but try to give it out bit by bit. Perhaps no one is able to completely identify dagger, but a character recognises the area/culture/crafter, leading to a side-quest where the party has to seek out the origin place of the dagger to discover who it was made for. If they succeed, they're given a clue, which makes it possible to roll again and discover something more. Of course, this is only if you want to make a big deal out of it. There's nothing wrong with just letting the players roll and succeed on the first try, or fail and having a harder time as a result. It all depends on the group and what kind of story you want.

[Drakevarg]

I'd say "ma'am" sounds less cool because it's actually a slang term, shorthand for "madam." And while "ma'am" almost instinctively sounds like it's being spoken in a southern drawl or somesuch, "madam" sounds like it's best spoken in a "pompous windbag" accent, similar to that of "sir."

So, to correct myself:

You, madam, win the thread.

As for the rest of your points, good information to keep in mind, but not terribly relevent to the immeadiate situation. The purpose of identifying the dagger is mostly to simply hint that the half-orc barbarian that is the prime suspect for the murder is probably not the actual perpatrator.

[Thurbane]

I'd say either Appraise or Knowledge (Local) would be apt for the dagger. Maybe even Knowledge (History).

The poison is trickier. Maybe Heal, since that is what you use to identify diseases? Not exactly the same, but loosely related.

I'd also give a synergy bonus to anyone with the appropriate Craft or Profession skills for either of these checks.

[Emmerask]

I would allow craft for the check without any penalty

knowledge history only if that particular dagger or dagger maker had some impact on the actual history for example baron xy was killed with a dagger with such a mark or somesuch.

Knowledge Local only if they visited the general area where such daggers are made and then only without penalty if the "brand" is widely used and known there or if they had some dealings with someone selling them for example.

Appraise I would only allow if the smiths mark has some impact on the actual value of the item.

bardic lore of course would work too

[OracleofWuffing]

I'd totally work with the craft skill for the weapon and then for poison making, separately. Who knows, you might get some of that teamwork thing going on.

That said, though, Masters of the Wild has the Watch Detective prestige class, which can use a Search check to identify the cause of death of any corpse (DC 20, and can typically take 20). It's not a favorable combat class, but depending on how murder mystery you want to get, you might want to pick some abilities from that one and give them to your players for free.

[LibraryOgre]

The question I have is that what skill would be best to use in identifying the particular make of a dagger, and what poison was used on it. I had considered Craft (Blacksmithing) for the dagger and Craft (Alchemy) for the poison, but Craft is apparently only for making stuff, not identifying it. I had also considered Appraise or Search, but again I'm not sure which is more appropriate for this task.

A few ways you could go about each of them.

For the dagger, you might go with a Craft check... while technically only for making stuff, I would say it represents familiarity with the material, too. If you're looking at identifying the maker, you might try K:Local or K:Nobility, to recognize the maker's mark (history if it was really old, Dungeoneering if it was a drow or similar type of make, religion if it was a ceremonial blade). I'd also allow Appraise, since certain maker's marks are going to increase the value of a blade.

Now, for the poison, some obvious ones:
Craft: Poison
Craft: Alchemy
Profession: Herbalist
Heal
Also, you might look to the poison's origin. If it's a natural poison, you might go with K: Nature. If it's from an rare Underdark ooze, we're looking at dungeoneering. Might also be Planes.

Now, obviously, some of these will be easier than others. I would let the Alchemist or the Poisoner do this without much issue, if they can get a sample. The people going with the various Knowledge skills will probably have a harder time, especially if they don't have a good description of the poison's effects.

[Kris Strife]

Diplomacy: Make someone else tell you what you need to know.

[Eldariel]

Now, for the poison, some obvious ones:
Craft: Poison
Craft: Alchemy
Profession: Herbalist
Heal
Also, you might look to the poison's origin. If it's a natural poison, you might go with K: Nature. If it's from an rare Underdark ooze, we're looking at dungeoneering. Might also be Planes.

And if it's a purely synthetic poison, I'd say K: Local. Generally artificial, mundane stuff falls under there.

[jpreem]

Appraise skill to identify stuff. Appraise gets synergy bonus from appropriate craft skill.