Swordsage/Ninja Feat Advice

[acid_ninja]

Hi guys,

New to posting but I've been lurking for a while.

I'm creating a character for use in a one-shot (two players can't make the regular date). We're losing the rogue and the fighter so I'm trying to create a character who can fill the melee damage and trap disarming roles. The rest of the party consists of a cleric (death and pleasure domains) and a battle sorcerer (UA variant - light armor and a rapier) so no one is especially squishy. I've created a 2/2 Human Swordsage/Ninja who I'm pretty happy with but I'd like some opinions on his third feat. While I do want him to be pretty bad, flavor and roleplaying are important to me (so no out there feats like Neraph charge or Dragonfire Strike and Craven doesn't fit the character concept).

Although this is for a one-shot if I can convince one of my players to take over some of the DMing I'd like to play him as my mainstay. He might get a bit of tweaking (mostly skills) if that was the case to take into account a different party composition so the long run is also taken into account.

Stats (Point buy - 32 points)

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Str 9
Dex 18 (17 +1 from char lvl 4)
Con 10
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 8

I'm using both shadow blade and weapon finesse so Str is pretty pointless (especially since I won't be wearing armor and don't need to carry anything).

Cha is the obvious dump stat and fits in with the backstory (raised by a secretive assassin cult and trained never to show emotion)

Skills:

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Going with Max ranks in Tumble, Hide, Move Silently, Concentration and Disable Device

5 ranks in jump (for the +2 to tumble and tiger claw manuevers)
6 ranks in Open Lock (With MW tools that gives me a 20 when I take 10)
The rest into spot and listen (to serve as a scout)

No UMD because its not class and we won't be seeing any wands and won't have the chance to go shopping for one

Gear

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Bracers of Armor +1 - every little bit of AC helps
Boots of Agile Leaping - with ninja's great leap ability my jump check rocks your face off and as a bonus I no longer fear trips - best. 600 gp. Ever.
MW weapons
A few potions - mage armor and cat's grace

Feats (Where I'd like help)

Weapon Focus (from the Swordsage class feature - I'll be using shortswords and daggers)

Weapon Finesse - no brainer for a Dex build like this

Shadow Blade - ToB - totally doing away with the need for Str, plus its a pre-req for the Shadow Hand tactical feat which is plenty awesome.

For the third feat I'm torn between TWF for offense or Dodge or Combat Expertise for Defense.

He's got a high enough attack bonus (+3 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 Weapon Focus, MW Short Sword +1 = +9 that he wouldn't be too inconvenienced by the -2 from two weapon fighting. Plus he'll have sudden leap (ToB) and a pretty good jump check from ninja class feature + boots of agile leaping (jump based on Dex) so he'll be able to cover a lot of ground and get off a full attack in one round so TWF may be the way to go.

On the other hand the cleric doesn't wear a lot of armor (he's new to the game) and neither does the sorcerer and my AC isn't the greatest (+4 Dex, +3 Wis, +1 Bracers of Armor = 18, but I will be bringing along some potions of mage armor for another +4 for two hours for a max of 22 but I can't rely on that all the time) and I don't have a lot of hp - low con and d8 and d6 HD so I was thinking of either dodge or combat reflexes. Dodge is nice because it doesn't hurt my attack at all, Combat Reflexes can really help the ol' AC and in the future I'd be looking at Deadly Defense for another d6 of damage (It'll be like playing the old Star Wars system.

Having said that I think I may have just convinced myself to go with TWF. I can always fight defensively and with my high tumble I'll get another +1 to AC for a total of +3 for a -4 to attack - only one off of combat reflexes best bonus. With CR or TWF I get a -2 to attack but with TWF I trade that for a lot more damage instead of a +2 to AC that I can get from the cleric casting Cat's Grace (which will also help damage and attack.

Still, those low hp are a little scary. Any thoughts?

Oh, as far as manuevers I'll be aimed at Shadow Hand stuff to give me a miss chance to further bolster the defenses and lots of ways to get a sudden strike in, Tiger Claw for movement and Flat-footed fun (especially if I go TWF) and Diamond Mind for attacking and to help out the meager fortitude save later on (the most glaring weak spot in the character).

What do we think?

[Greenish]

Ninja levels (if you really want two of them) first to pump IL. How does Craven not fit a stealthy assassin?

Oh, and how about Extra Readied Maneuver or Adaptive Style?

[acid_ninja]

He's starting out at level 4 so the order of levels doesn't seem that important at the moment. Not sure what you mean by IL. (Edit: IL = Initiator Level. I get it. 1/2 your other levels add to your swordsage levels to determine what level manuevers you can learn. But it doesn't make any difference does it? Level 2 ninja, level 1 swordsage = IL 2 and I still can't take 2nd level manuevers until IL 3, i.e. Ninja 2/Swordsage 2, so I might as well take the 1st level as a Swordsage and pick up the higher maxxed 1st level HD, que no?)

The crunch of Craven is delicious but the flavor - that he's a coward - doesn't work for this guy. He's an assassin type because that's how he was trained, he never had a choice in the matter.

Extra Readied Manuever and Adaptive Style both look good but not sure if they address my concerns (filling in for a melee character and a rogue at the same time).

What's so bad about ninja? Would I be better off just going rogue/swordsage? Sneak attack > sudden strike for sure but I like the idea of being able to turn invisible and great leap would really help with my jump checks (which are important for Tiger Claw style). On the other hand rogue means wearing light armor to deal with the AC issue, plus a few more skills.

[Greenish]

He's starting out at level 4 so the order of levels doesn't seem that important at the moment. Not sure what you mean by IL.

Initiator level. It determines the level of maneuvers you can learn. Non-initiator (ie. non-ToB) classes count as 1/2, so with two levels of ninja to begin with he would get 2nd level maneuvers (which require IL 3) at ECL 4. Savvy?

The crunch of Craven is delicious but the flavor - that he's a coward - doesn't work for this guy. He's an assassin type because that's how he was trained, he never had a choice in the matter.

Refluff?

Extra Readied Manuever and Adaptive Style both look good but not sure if they address my concerns (filling in for a melee character and a rogue at the same time).

One feat isn't going to change your ninja into a beatstick.

What's so bad about ninja?

What's so good about ninja? Let me think, hmm… Oh, nothing. Sudden Strike is much more limited than SA. There's nothing the class offers that a straight swordsage (or even rogue) couldn't do better.

Would I be better off just going rogue/swordsage? Sneak attack > sudden strike for sure but I like the idea of being able to turn invisible and great leap would really help with my jump checks (which are important for Tiger Claw style). On the other hand rogue means wearing light armor to deal with the AC issue, plus a few more skills.

If you really want trapfinding, a level or two of rogue would be fine. Swordsages can turn invisible with Shadow Hand maneuvers (and of course UMD).

Wait, how about Factotum 1 (with able learner)/something (to boost IL)/Swordsage 2? All skills as class skills, trapfinding and so forth.

[Pluto]

Refluff?

The feat excludes fear immunity. It's not just the fluff that needs to change.

What's so bad about ninja? Would I be better off just going rogue/swordsage?

I can see what you're doing with ninja - the two levels for 4 swift 1-round invisibility uses/day.
But another Swordsage level would get you the same thing (via Cloak of Deceit), and would leave your level 1 free for a Rogue dip (with its more reliable damage, wider skill list and more skill points).

[lsfreak]

You can do it with refluffing as long as actual fear immunity doesn't come up. He was exposed to mundane sources of fear but untrained in supernatural fears (spells, dragons, etc), or maybe his style of attacking is so focused it leaves his mind more vulnerable to completely unexpected shifts in battle conditions.

[JaronK]

For what it's worth, when I want to do a Ninja like this I use Rogue 1/Rokugan Ninja 1/Unarmed Variant Swordsage X. It covers all the abilities you want a ninja to have far better, including wacky weapon use, UMD as a class skill (since Ninjas used lots of wacky tools), martial arts, and so on... plus you get a nice boost to early skills and sneak attack.

JaronK

[Emmerask]

Feats (Where I'd like help)

Weapon Focus (from the Swordsage class feature - I'll be using shortswords and daggers)

Weapon Finesse - no brainer for a Dex build like this

Shadow Blade - ToB - totally doing away with the need for Str, plus its a pre-req for the Shadow Hand tactical feat which is plenty awesome.

For the third feat I'm torn between TWF for offense or Dodge or Combat Expertise for Defense.

You really should consider taking adaptive style (feat from tob). It allows you to change and recover all your maneuvers as a full round action. If you don´t take it you can only recover one maneuver during a full round action and changing your maneuvers requires 5 minutes

[acid_ninja]

Thanks guys. I think I'll end up going Level 2 Rogue/2 Swordsage with TWF as my 3rd feat. 1st two levels as a rogue - that way I end up with the ability to select 2nd level manuevers from the gate, including the invisibilty one (to replace the ghost walk from ninja) and teleportation (the low level one isn't terribly useful in combat - requires a standard action - but has soooooo many utility applications), plus get disable device and search up to respectable levels early so I don't burn too many skill points in cross-class. Also light armor takes care of the low AC (MW studded leather gets me to 20, 23 if I fight defensively. Fluff-wise its all still there. I don't think I'll get Craven as a) it just doesn't fit with the character and b) I don't have a copy of that book so it can't be used in this game (house rule).

From there, if the one-shot continues I'll probably just go swordsage from here out. Focus on Shadow Blade (so many awesome manuevers) and tiger claw (for TWF) with a bit of Diamond Mind thrown in.

Cheers

[Draz74]

Another good feat idea is Darkstalker.

[acid_ninja]

6th level for that. At the moment I'm hoping to end encounters quickly enough (using two weapon sneak attacks) that I won't need to do too much recovering and I plan on having two basic 'sets' of manuevers - one for normal enemies and one for constructs, undead, etc. With judicious scouting (making use of invisibility and teleportation) i hopefully will have a chance to prepare myself.

[The Cat Goddess]

Since Wis-to-AC doesn't stack, one of the primary reasons to go with Ninja is gone. Also, where did you get +3 BAB at level 4? Rogue, Ninja & Swordsage all have average BAB, which means +0 at first level. Though you could be using the fractional BAB rules, I guess.

Rogue 1 is skill-point heaven. Rogue 2 is Evasion. With a decent Dex and +6 to Reflex Saves (Rogue-2 + Swordsage-2) you've got a pretty good chance of avoiding damage. Once you hit level 6, your Sorcerer is throwing fireballs with a Reflex Save of 17... you only need a 7+ at level 4 to beat that.

Plus, instead of Sneak Attack, you can go Feat-variant and get two Fighter bonus feats to go with your two levels of Rogue. Make one of them "Improved Toughness" if you want, which gives you +1 hp per level.

Plus you can get a Mithril Chain Shirt for practially the same cost of +1 Bracers, and that's +4 AC all the time. That's a standing AC of 21. Don't bother buying a Ring of Protection... it's my experience that they're so common we call them "Rings of Ubiquity".

I do recommend Adaptive Style... but you'll either have to take Swordsage at level 1 to get it at level 1 or you'll have to get it at level 3. Since the same is true of Shadow Blade, you're pretty-much going to have to go with Swordsage at level 1.

So...

1-Swordsage 1
Class Feat: Weapon Focus
Feat: Adaptive Style
Human Bonus Feat: Shadow Blade

2-Feat Variant Rogue-1
Fighter Bonus Feat: (Pick one)

3-Feat Variant Rogue-2
Fighter Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse
Level Feat:

4-Swordsage 2

For your 3rd level feat... Vital Recovery is neat... healing 3+level hps per encounter. However, I recommend you get Combat Expertise at level 2 and Deadly Defence (Complete Scoundrel) at level 3. This gives you an extra 1d6 damage when wielding a light weapon and using Combat Expertise (minimum -2 to hit/+2 AC). It also opens up Improved Trip later and is a great excuse to get a Spiked Chain later as well.

[acid_ninja]

where did you get +3 BAB at level 4? Rogue, Ninja & Swordsage all have average BAB, which means +0 at first level. Though you could be using the fractional BAB rules, I guess.

Bingo. That's a house rule we use - if all your classes have the same BAB you use ECL to figure BAB.

Also, that extra 1d6 of sneak attack is part of the point, otherwise why not go factotum and get mad skills + a touch of spellcasting?

[Greenish]

Also, that extra 1d6 of sneak attack is part of the point, otherwise why not go factotum and get mad skills + a touch of spellcasting?

That is a very, very good question. Please, do contemplate what you're giving up for mere 1d6 situational damage.

[The Cat Goddess]

Bingo. That's a house rule we use - if all your classes have the same BAB you use ECL to figure BAB.

Also, that extra 1d6 of sneak attack is part of the point, otherwise why not go factotum and get mad skills + a touch of spellcasting?

Feats, that's why not.

[WoodenSword]

I suggest utilizing those SA feats from CS

[Greenish]

I suggest utilizing those SA feats from CS

Ambush feats need more than 1d6 SA to qualify, as far as I can recall.

[Pluto]

Thanks guys. I think I'll end up going Level 2 Rogue/2 Swordsage with TWF as my 3rd feat. 1st two levels as a rogue - that way I end up with the ability to select 2nd level manuevers from the gate, including the invisibilty one (to replace the ghost walk from ninja) and teleportation ...

You're doing something wrong. I'm not sure what.

Rogue increases your Initiator level by .5 each level.
So a Rogue 2/Swordsage 1 has an Initiator level of 2 (.5+.5+1).

You don't get 2nd level maneuvers until IL 3
[Max Maneuver level = (Initiator Level+1)/2]

So with either Rogue 1/Swordsage 3 or Rogue 2/Swordsage 2, you can only have one 2nd level maneuver known.
That means either Veil of Deceit or Shadow Jaunt, not both.

[acid_ninja]

You're doing something wrong. I'm not sure what.

Rogue increases your Initiator level by .5 each level.
So a Rogue 2/Swordsage 1 has an Initiator level of 2 (.5+.5+1).

You don't get 2nd level maneuvers until IL 3
[Max Maneuver level = (Initiator Level+1)/2]

So with either Rogue 1/Swordsage 3 or Rogue 2/Swordsage 2, you can only have one 2nd level maneuver known.
That means either Veil of Deceit or Shadow Jaunt, not both.

I'm sucking at math, that's what.

So either invisibility or teleportation. I think it'll have to be invis. Bear in mind that this character is for a one-shot and if we started an ongoing game with him we'd have a different party composition. At that point I'd probably keep the same fluff but rebuild and go straight Swordsage but since I can pretty much guarantee that the game will be full of traps and we have no rogue I need trapfinding for this character. That means either factotum or rogue. I prefer rogue for two reasons - that 1d6 of sneak attack + TWF + Swordsage manuevers and stances + initiative mod of +5 = lots and lots of sneak attacks:

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7 man. known, 4 readied =

1st round: Ambush (using hide/move silently and/or invis to get into position) - 1 sneak attack
2nd round (enemies hopefully flat-footed): Sudden Leap + Full Attack - 2 sneak attacks
3rd round: Veil of Deceit + Wolf Fang Strike = 2 sneak attacks
4th round: Sapphire Nightmare Blade + move action = 1 sneak attack (with the extra dam from SNB its more like 1.5 sneak attacks)

And of course with judicious use of flanking, helped by island of blades stance when needed that +1d6 isn't so situational. Not to mention that with Rogue 2 I get Evasion (and my reflex save is already pretty good). The downside is that against undead and constructs my effectiveness is limited. But with good scouting I can prepare my 'no sneak attack' manuever set:


4 Manuevers Readied:
Clinging Shadow Strike +1d6
Shadow Blade Technique possible +1d6
Burning Blade +1d6+2 per attack
Sapphire Nightmare Blade + 1d6

Or, with factotum I could get two +2's per encounter and a 0 - level spell. The 'all skills in class' doesn't make much difference, since all the skills I want are already class skills for a rogue (and I'd have more skill points to spend on them for those levels) and the spellcasting...meh. A single 0-level spell (-like ability) per day doesn't make up for the extra damage potential of sneak attack and the defense of evasion.

Cat Goddess: Where is the feat variant rogue? Its worth considering

[Draz74]

Cat Goddess: Where is the feat variant rogue? Its worth considering

Unearthed Arcana, or the SRD.

[The Rabbler]

I would like to bring up factotum again. seriously. grab able learner as your feat (maybe take a flaw for adaptive style as well) and you'll be the best skillmonkey your party could ask for.

factotum 1: able learner, weapon finesse (and maybe adaptive style)
swordsage 1: weapon focus
swordsage 2: wis to AC, shadow blade
swordsage 3: other stuff.

though this would make you somewhat MAD with the new dependency on Int.

It's sub-optimal to take only one level of factotum, I know, but that's all you really need at this point. if you plan on playing it more, dip something useful (rogue is fun) then grab more swordsage at level 6.

or you could just go plain 4 levels of factotum and rock iaijutsu with quick draw/quick sheath.

[The Cat Goddess]

You cannot get Weapon Finesse at level 1 without having a BAB of +1.

You cannot get Adaptive Style or Shadow Blade without having Maneuvers.

Thus, to get Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade both, you either have to get Swordsage at level one or go Feat-Rogue.

[acid_ninja]

So I've just gone rogue 2/swordsage 2 (first and last levels as Swordsage for the bigger max hit die and so my feats would work). Going with TWF as feat 3. for lots of sneak attack. With only 20 hp at 4th level I'm a bit of a glass cannon but hopefully the 21 AC (with a bit of Cat's Grace from the cleric for a 23) will keep me from being hit too much.

Dipping is discouraged in my group and I need to be a combination beatstick and skill monkey. I'd probably go straight swordsage if it was for a longer running game and I had more effecient support. I don't need to optimize too much for this character since its a first-time DM who's still a little shaky on the rules. I normally DM and I don't want to turn my players into hard core rules lawyers but I do want to show them the kind of options that exist in the game.

Having said that, there's got to be a way to get lots of sneak attack (more than the 2d6 from Assassin's stance) with a swordsage build. So so many of their feats and manuevers lend themselves to sneak attacking - flanks and causing flat-footedness I'd love to take advantage of that. Maybe a PrC?

Edit: not going to do this but:

Swordsage 1/Fighter (sneak attack variant) 1/ Rogue 1/Swordsage 1

2d6 sneak attack + all the swordsage stuff for 6 skill points. Loses a bit of skill monkey stuff for that extra d6 of SA.