good mechanics for coming back from the dead

[Kol Korran]

i tried to ask about this in another thread, but there was so much else going on there, that i barely got a response for this:

soon i'll be starting a new campaign, in Eberron, where true ressurections are extremley rare to non existent. which means that most commons method from coming back fro mthe dead will be raise dead and reincarnation. both include a level loss. i dislike the level loss mechanic since i don't use the generic XP method but rather give XP according to accomplishments, when appropriate. (i won't get into that). i do not know how to factor in the level loss in this system.
plus- from previous experience with other DMs it has always taken a long time for the level to get back, in which the player has been a bit bummed out.

i'm looking for an alternate mechanic. my idea was to lose 2 CON permenantly. (a sort of a scarring by death. i'd like death to have some permanent effect, a sting if you may) but a few forumists seemed to get angry at this. (only one approved). so what are you ideas?

waiting to hear from you all, Kol Korran.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Just go with the level loss.
When you give out XP, give the lower level characters a bonus for coping with adversity above their level.
10% per level below the main group should do it.

Or - revolutionary idea - let the players learn to get used to the idea that dying has a penalty attached to it.

The way I see it, you got to have your character back. Stop whining about losing a freakin' level, and be grateful that the rest of the party liked you enough to bring you back. You could always just stay dead.

[Devils_Advocate]

i dislike the level loss mechanic since i don't use the generic XP method but rather give XP according to accomplishments, when appropriate. (i won't get into that). i do not know how to factor in the level loss in this system.

What about your system would make level loss function differently? The rules for it aren't dependent on means of XP gain. Well, there is the thingy where lower-level characters gain more XP for the same encounter (if they're player characters. Cohorts work the opposite way. It's all pretty arbitrary). Is that what you're thinking of?

If so, then, like Altair pointed out, you could just, uh... still give lower-level characters more XP for doing the same things. If not doing that is what you think might cause a problem, then you could, uh, y'know, still do it.

from previous experience with other DMs it has always taken a long time for the level to get back, in which the player has been a bit bummed out.

i'm looking for an alternate mechanic. my idea was to lose 2 CON permenantly. (a sort of a scarring by death. i'd like death to have some permanent effect, a sting if you may) but a few forumists seemed to get angry at this. (only one approved).

The goal of permanently penalizing characters for death (so as to make death more meaningful) is directly opposed to the goal of penalizing characters less for death (so that players will be less upset). A permanent penalty is more severe than a temporary one, all else being equal. And if you lessen the permanent penalty to the point that it's not a bother... then, well, it's not a bother.

Death can be made an extremely unpleasant thing, thereby encouraging characters to avoid it, raising tension, and making keeping oneself alive more of an accomplishment. Death can be made into a relatively trivial setback, thereby encouraging characters to take more dramatic risks and reducing impediment to their progress. These approaches are mutually opposed; the extent to which you do one is the extent to which you don't do the other.

Here, let me try to break down the possibilities:

1. Characters are permanently and meaningfully screwed over for getting killed. Death is a serious threat to be avoided, and players of resurrected characters are unhappy for the rest of the game.
2. Characters are permanently but trivially penalized for getting killed. Death is a nuisance to be avoided but not really all that scary, and players of resurrected characters are less unhappy.
3. Characters are temporarily but meaningfully penalized for getting killed. Death is a serious threat to be avoided, but players of resurrected characters are only unhappy for a while.
4. Characters are temporarily and trivially penalized for getting killed. Death is cheap. Characters no longer really need to worry about being killed, just about making sure that they get brought back from the dead if they do. This opens up lots of interesting possibilities.

The Constitution loss that you suggest falls into category #1. The normal level loss from being raised falls into category #3; it's a compromise where death has meaningful negative consequences, but a player can get back a dead character and not have that character gimped forever.

tl;dr: The "sting" of death is what makes a player "bummed" after his character gets killed. Pretty much by definition. This really seems like it should be obvious. Increasing the severity of this magnifies both the advantages and disadvantages, and decreasing the severity reduces both the advantages and disadvantages. Similarly, extending the duration of the penalty extends the duration of both its desirable and its undesirable effects, and reducing the duration decreases the duration of both desirable and undesirable effects. Any way you slice it, death is however much of bummer it is, for however long that it is, with all of the good and the bad consequences of that.

[Tengu_temp]

Make Restoration give back XP lost from dying. Problem solved.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Here's a rule for you.
When you die and are brought back to life you incur a negative level. This negative level is removed[and can not be removed otherwise] when you next level up.

So if a 8th level character is killed then raised he suffers a negative level until he reaches level 9.

[QuantumSteve]

PF solves this thusly: Raise Dead and Reincarnate drain two levels. These can be restored like normal with restoration. They also changed Restoration a bit, so if you want to restore more than one level, you have to wait a week between castings. (Just so the lost level had a chance to inconvenience the player before going away forever)
Of course you could use Greater Restoration to get back both levels in one go, but that has an XP cost.

[Lord Loss]

I use the taint mechanic, expect varied as such:

You only gain taint by coming back from the dead. When you are reborn, your taint advances to the next symptom. That means you can only be ressurected 3 times. This adds roleplay opportunities and a penalty that does not render your character unplayable (at least for the first two phases). The DM chooses between Depravity and Corruption.

You can only be returned to life in certain rare locations (Where incarnum can be found). Very rare Fonts of Incarnum allow one to lower their taint level. They can only be used once each.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I use the taint mechanic, expect varied as such:

You only gain taint by coming back from the dead. When you are reborn, your taint advances to the next symptom. That means you can only be ressurected 3 times. This adds roleplay opportunities and a penalty that does not render your character unplayable (at least for the first two phases). The DM chooses between Depravity and Corruption.

You can only be returned to life in certain rare locations (Where incarnum can be found). Very rare Fonts of Incarnum allow one to lower their taint level. They can only be used once each.

What if the character took the pure soul feat and is immune to taint?

[Greenish]

i'm looking for an alternate mechanic. my idea was to lose 2 CON permenantly. (a sort of a scarring by death. i'd like death to have some permanent effect, a sting if you may) but a few forumists seemed to get angry at this.

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean we're angry.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean we're angry.

Whoa, now. Calm down!

I think you can implement the Taint idea without actually using Taint. Maybe the first three times you're raised you just get a negative level that can be removed via Restoration, but after that you need a True Res to come back. That way, dying once still has ominous future implications (crap, can't be that hasty any more...) without gimping the character in the meantime.

[Mastikator]

Whenever someone is going to be brought back from the dead, it can only be done by the sacrifice of someone else. (and not like a squirrel, the soul has to be roughly equivalent, so same type and ECL+)
Or they come back as a soulless shell of their former self, with personality change/loss or perhaps some other kind of penalty that I can't think of.

This would make it extremely rare since most aren't willing to sacrifice someone for resurrection, and it's not always easy to get a target, especially willing.
An resurrection is meaningless without the sacrifice and only done by the mad and the desperate.
It makes resurrection an [Evil] spell.


But I'm more of the "death is supposed to be hopeless" school.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The thing is in D&D death is rather easy, an unlucky roll can bring someone down no matter how clever or prepared they are. If your going to make coming back MORE difficult Mastikator you should keep in mind just how easy it is to die in this game.

[oxybe]

it all depends on how harsh you want death to be.

let's all be honest, losing a character sucks, especially if you're invested in a character. even if death is a "revolving door" by making true resurrections cheap, it still takes the player outside of the game for a while.

in our last campaign, my character died only once and i'm proud of that. he failed a spot check, followed by a failed fort check... not so proud of that.

our characters were high level, levels 17-18ish, and true resurrection was cheap enough since my character had more then enough money saved up.

the problem was twofold though: our cleric was a battle cleric and only had self buffs prepped that day. it would be a full day before he could prep a true res AND get the plane-hopping spells ready so we could buy the diamond component. the other problem is that we were on a time limit in-game and couldn't just drop everything to get my sorry ass revived.

so while i suffered no penalty for the revival, i had to sit out nearly two full sessions because i couldn't roll higher then a 4 on two rolls.

from the 4 points Devils_Advocate made, IMO, no.3 or 4 are probably the "best" options from a game-friendly standpoint. a small penalty that can be removed over time can remind the player that death can still be a pain, but it's the removing the player from the game entirely that hurts the most.

if you hobble the character too much for dying, remember that players can always opt to roll up a new character. make the penalty of death too harsh, and there's a very good chance you get a revolving cast of characters as each death is replaced with a new PC.

a permanent 2 point con penalty in 3rd ed is pretty harsh. -1hp per hit dice can REALLY hurt a low HP class or characters with not a large con score. it also means -1 to your fort save and a few skills. i would at least give the players some way of removing that penalty somehow, either through some sort of quest given to them from their god, or by using a hard to get item (drinking the tear of a phoenix or some other sort of item).

[Mastikator]

The thing is in D&D death is rather easy, an unlucky roll can bring someone down no matter how clever or prepared they are. If your going to make coming back MORE difficult Mastikator you should keep in mind just how easy it is to die in this game.

Oh I know all too well how easy it is to die. But I'm used to the rule that when you die, you're gone forever and you can create a new character who starts from scratch, or with a percentage amount of exp of the previous char (usually 50%).
The system I proposed would make death less gritty by my standards.

Why can't people just accept that if you run around waving swords, kicking down doors and challenging powerful monsters you're not going to live a long life, but if you're luckly, bards will sing about you.

[PersonMan]

Why can't people just accept that if you run around waving swords, kicking down doors and challenging powerful monsters you're not going to live a long life, but if you're luckly, bards will sing about you.

Because people want to play as heroes. They don't want to be one of those who die, they want to be the heroes, who save the world/defeat the monsters/whatever. Besides, whenever I make a character I get pretty invested in them, and having to lose them due to a few unlucky dice would be very annoying.

[oxybe]

because some people want a more fantastic game and that "gritty realism" houserule isn't for everyone?

remember that D&D is a game where a dwarf with a pet bear turns into a bear, summons other bears, makes all bears grow bigger, fly then proceed to fire death lasers and maul his enemies.

where you can drop from a mile or three and still survive to walk away (most damage you can get from falling caps out at 20d6... 70 damage average tops).

that the only HP that actually matters is your 1 last HP... until you reach that last HP you're just as able as you were at full.

D&D is a weird beast that different people work in different ways. your mileage may vary is a very viable thing to say when houserules come into play.

[Mastikator]

I assure you that death and defeat would be much less annoying if you didn't take life and victory for granted.

[oxybe]

shrug. if i don't get invested in a character and treat it as series of numbers, i'd probably have more fun playing WoW or Diablo 2 instead of waiting for GM setup time and plot i'm not interested in.

[Mastikator]

Cute, but I don't treat my characters as a series of numbers.
When I create a character I think of a concept I want to roleplay, and I fold the numbers around that. Often this causes the party to be without a healer, or a trapmonkey, or a warrior, or someone who is smart. But that's fine with me. The game is not about unlocking achievements.

But this is OT, lets drop it shall we?

[Reluctance]

And when unlucky dice rolls cause you to lose three characters in as many sessions, do you put the same effort into character #4? (If you say that doesn't happen in the games you play, you're playing in a tweaked game. Low levels are risky due to fragile characters, while high levels are risky thanks to lots of SoD's being thrown around.)

On topic, I've turned the penalty for dying from a real lost level into a permanent negative level that can't be removed normally with spells. Proper rites at certain holy locations do allow these negative levels to be cleared out, meaning that every PC death turns into an adventure hook.

[icastflare!]

I like the death system how it is. Death is serouis. If you want it to be really serouis, no ressurections.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Oh I know all too well how easy it is to die. But I'm used to the rule that when you die, you're gone forever and you can create a new character who starts from scratch, or with a percentage amount of exp of the previous char (usually 50%).
The system I proposed would make death less gritty by my standards.

Why can't people just accept that if you run around waving swords, kicking down doors and challenging powerful monsters you're not going to live a long life, but if you're luckly, bards will sing about you.

Not to mention a story that ends with a completely different cast then what it started with kinda sucks. You can't have a decent story arc and character development with D&D being as lethal as it is and no access to raise dead.

[Orzel]

I played in a homebrew world where you lose fingers when you are raised instead of xp and levels.
Death eat them.
You get up. See your friends. And say "Where's my pinky!"
A couple of deaths you can't hold things nor cast spells with the hand. After the 4th finger, he eats the whole hand and moves to the next.

Then feet. Then... it don't get pretty.
Oh And Death will teach you raise dead for free. He'll teach you anything that will get you killed for next to nothing.
And you can only wish or miracle them back.

[Dilb]

Suppose raise dead or reincarnation or ressurection didn't exist. What would the player who lost his PC do?
Leave the game?
Roll up a new level 1 character?
Roll up a new equal level character? With equipment?
Take over an NPC?

Unless you have oddly appropriate spare characters lying around, death is not very fun for a group activity. If you just allow a new character to come in, then mechanically it's better to die, because the party gets to keep your old stuff. The fun way is to allow resurrection/raise dead with at most a temporary penalty.

[Satyr]

If you can find it, Heroes of Horror includes some random drawbacks hich occur when people are ressurected. Most of them are just fluff, but they add up if someone dies frequently, and it adds to the atmosphere.

I wouldn't penalize people for being ressurected - that tends to be annoying in the long run. You could just make ressurections of all kinds difficult and risky: Ressurection requires a Constitution check of the deceased (DC 15 + number of previous deaths; if the check fails, the ressurection fails as well. On a natural 1, the character is permanently dead and cannot be revived by any means.

[Kol Korran]

thank you all for the responses. i think i will do as Altair suggested, and just add 10-20% to the XP of the character that is a level below.

Devils Advocate, that was a nice summary. thanks. it cleared things up for me.

Greenish i know most just disagreed, but 1 or 2 people seemed angry at me for suggesting the 2 con penalty. i was refering to them. maybe i got things wrong. it happens.

[crizh]

How about aging the character at every raise/res/reincarnate?

Maybe 10% of Racial Max every time with no bonuses to Mental Stats. Eventually you run out of headroom and die of old age.