What's the CR of a Deity?

[Bobmufin52]

So, my friends want to do an epic campaign after we finish the one we’re doing. I’m fine with this, and I actually really want to do it, too. For the BBEG I was thinking they fight a goddess in the book Deities & Demigods on pgs. 204-205. My only problem is that I really can’t figure out the system to tell the CR of the goddess. I know that gods and goddesses are immortal in the book, but if she wasn’t, I want to know what her CR would be. Is there an easy way to tell a deity's CR in the book?

[Axolotl]

There isn't any easy way. SDAs are very variable in how powerful they are which makes it very difficult to judge a deities power without knowing what the SDAs are. Also for battles with gods are much more likely to be affected by external circumstances.

If they're the BBEG then why do you need the CR? Killing a god should really be the cliax of all but the most exteme of campaigns. just make them around the right power to really hurt the PCs but still killable.

[tyckspoon]

Is there an easy way to tell a deity's CR in the book?

Nope. I suppose if you really want to you could do something like figure out what the CR would be if it weren't a deity (so a 20HD Outsider+ at least 20 class levels- comes out somewhere in the 30s, I think) and then add 1 CR for every point of Divine Rank, plus an additional modifier for being in the lesser/intermediate/greater category with the extra powers those bring.

[Bobmufin52]

There isn't any easy way. SDAs are very variable in how powerful they are which makes it very difficult to judge a deities power without knowing what the SDAs are. Also for battles with gods are much more likely to be affected by external circumstances.

If they're the BBEG then why do you need the CR? Killing a god should really be the cliax of all but the most exteme of campaigns. just make them around the right power to really hurt the PCs but still killable.

Well, the way I usualy tell if somthing is really strong but still killable is by using the CR of the monster. lol
What's another way to judge the strength of the deity to see if it's able to be a good battle, but still killable?

[tyckspoon]

Well, the way I usualy tell if somthing is really strong but still killable is by using the CR of the monster. lol
What's another way to judge the strength of the deity to see if it's able to be a good battle, but still killable?

Does it have Hand of Death/Life and Death/Alter Reality as a Salient Divine Ability? If yes, you can't beat it. If no, you can probably fight it. Then check its Divine Ranks; Demigods and Lesser Deities can generally be taken on as if they were just big representatives of their archtypes (ie, a lesser god of combat can be managed like another powerful epic Fighter, a lesser god of magic.. is still a level 20 Wizard and will probably kill you regardless.) Intermediate and especially Greater gods generally need some PLOT to depower them a bit, as their inherent divine immunities, resistances, levels, and stats make them quite difficult to take down without being absurdly cheesy about it (Intermediate get the ability to not auto-fail on 1s, and Greater are always considered to roll 20s. Combine with 40+ HD and really high stats and they don't fail saves any more against anything below a Tainted Scholar.)

[Bobmufin52]

Nope. I suppose if you really want to you could do something like figure out what the CR would be if it weren't a deity (so a 20HD Outsider+ at least 20 class levels- comes out somewhere in the 30s, I think) and then add 1 CR for every point of Divine Rank, plus an additional modifier for being in the lesser/intermediate/greater category with the extra powers those bring.

So through this it's...
20 HD for being an outsider
20 HD for cleric
20 HD for barbarian
20 for 20 divine ranks
So...right now It's about a CR of 80, not counting the dety's catagory...

Wow, deties are strong. XD

[Axolotl]

Well, the way I usualy tell if somthing is really strong but still killable is by using the CR of the monster. lol
What's another way to judge the strength of the deity to see if it's able to be a good battle, but still killable?

For a start make sure the deity doesn't have any of the really broken SDAs (life and death, alter reality and so on) but generally you just need to eyeball it. Notre the gods in Deities and Demigods aren't very well built and don't use the ELH rules. You would be better off constructing the build yourself from scratch or use an ELH monster and just adding a few divine ranks. Unless you really want to use a pre-existing bad guy for whatever reason.

[Bobmufin52]

Well, to be honest, it sounds like it be easier to just make my own diety and not have to bother with all the rules in that book, so....

I think it be simpler just to make my deity from the ground up using the normal monster rules.

[demidracolich]

their cr is not quite at the level pcs can match, I heard somewhere that even a lesser deity like Tiamat has about CR85.

[Axolotl]

their cr is not quite at the level pcs can match, I heard somewhere that even a lesser deity like Tiamat has about CR85.

And what stops players from being level 85?

[WildPyre]

And what stops players from being level 85?

The DM? *rimshot*

But seriously... time restraints, suitable challenges for them to get xp after a certain level, basic reasoning skills...

[Axolotl]

The DM? *rimshot*

But seriously... time restraints, suitable challenges for them to get xp after a certain level, basic reasoning skills...

Well maybe I've just spent too much time on the Immortal's Handbook forums but 85 really doesn't seem that ludicrous to me. I mean I've read campaign notes of people who've managed to keep games going at levels in excess of 1000 so 85 seems perfectly workable in my mind.

[Mastikator]

Considering the game breaks pre-epic, 85 is ludicrous. 1000 is just silly and nonsensical.
Which is cool if you're into that.

[KillianHawkeye]

Does it have Hand of Death/Life and Death/Alter Reality as a Salient Divine Ability? If yes, you can't beat it.

She has all of those, as well as Mass Life and Death.

[WildPyre]

Considering the game breaks pre-epic, 85 is ludicrous. 1000 is just silly and nonsensical.
Which is cool if you're into that.

Yeah sometimes it's just best to hang up the character sheet and start a new game. Though I've always been one to more enjoy the journey than just skip right to the destination.

[The Glyphstone]

She has all of those, as well as Mass Life and Death.

Then CR is meaningless, because without DM fiat, she cannot be defeated by mortals, even if they are level 900 billion. One free action and the entire party is dead, no save, ignoring any immunities they have. TPK in round 1.

[Saint GoH]

Well, to be honest, it sounds like it be easier to just make my own diety and not have to bother with all the rules in that book, so....

I think it be simpler just to make my deity from the ground up using the normal monster rules.

There's actually a great portion of the srd dedicated to making a god, pulled from Deities and Demigods (but mildly easier to read imo). It lets you assign a divine rank, choose salient divine abilities, and basically tells you what to add to what. The only difficulty I found is what to do with stats. I basically looked up one of the Devil Lords in Fiendish Codex II and used his stats (flipped around as you see fit obviously). Came out to an overall pleasing Goddess that stomped a whole lot of face with only 40hd

[QuantumSteve]

Without the "Magical God Killing Artifact the DM Made Himself" you can't kill Deities. That said, a well written campaign centered around why and how to kill a God can be very cool.

I remember the time I played "Die, Vecna, Die" Good Times. It was the last 2nd Ed. adventure I ever played. *sniff*

[Mongoose87]

I remember the time I played "Die, Vecna, Die" Good Times. It was the last 2nd Ed. adventure I ever played. *sniff*

At least it was a good one.


My idea, for a modified version of deity-on-deity action is as follows.


Make a second character sheet, for the same character. This character sheet should have an ECL of 1 + 1(DR+1) [If a character has no divine rank, they will be an ECL 1 character]. Now, modify the second sheet as follows.

• Add 20 extra hitpoints so the combat doesn't end instantly
• Allow the characters to retain certai ncharacter-defining class features a character of their level would not have yet, but are very important to them (EG HiPS for a Shadow Dancer)
• Add any DM fiat-type abilities that are supposed to enable them to kill this god

Any time your characters encounter non-deities, they use their Epic-level character sheets. However, when fighting/dealing with deities, you use this format. You now have something within the framework of normal DnD to represent Deific combat.

[The Glyphstone]

Make a second character sheet, for the same character. This character sheet should have an ECL of 1 + 1(DR+1) [If a character has no divine rank, they will be an ECL 1 character]. Now, modify the second sheet as follows.

• Add 20 extra hitpoints so the combat doesn't end instantly
• Allow the characters to retain certai ncharacter-defining class features a character of their level would not have yet, but are very important to them (EG HiPS for a Shadow Dancer)
• Add any DM fiat-type abilities that are supposed to enable them to kill this god

.

20 Hit points, or 20 hit dice? 20 HP isn't going to matter, really.

[Mongoose87]

20 Hit points, or 20 hit dice? 20 HP isn't going to matter, really.

20 HP. I may not have made this clear but the Deity is getting the same treatment.

[Runestar]

Without the "Magical God Killing Artifact the DM Made Himself" you can't kill Deities. That said, a well written campaign centered around why and how to kill a God can be very cool.

I remember the time I played "Die, Vecna, Die" Good Times. It was the last 2nd Ed. adventure I ever played. *sniff*

Why not? They have hp like everyone else. Only thing is actually surviving their deluge of special abilities.

There is a big difference between "can't" and "shouldn't".

So through this it's...
20 HD for being an outsider
20 HD for cleric
20 HD for barbarian
20 for 20 divine ranks
So...right now It's about a CR of 80, not counting the dety's catagory...

I would take those class lvs with a grain of salt. For example, the elder titan in ELH is a mere cr30 even though it has 70 outsider HD. Outsider HD alone and non-complementary class lvs aren't really worth 1 cr each, especially when the class lvs already start incurring epic progression rules.

So 20 HD and 40 class lvs likely works out to a mere cr25-26. Then it is just a matter of determining how much those divine ranks add (which is the real challenge here).

[The Tygre]

Tired. DiceFreaks. Alternate deity rules. Use to determine CR. Go there. Appendix of Gates of Hell.

[Bobmufin52]

I would take those class lvs with a grain of salt. For example, the elder titan in ELH is a mere cr30 even though it has 70 outsider HD. Outsider HD alone and non-complementary class lvs aren't really worth 1 cr each, especially when the class lvs already start incurring epic progression rules.

So 20 HD and 40 class lvs likely works out to a mere cr25-26. Then it is just a matter of determining how much those divine ranks add (which is the real challenge here).

Hm....So if I cut off the divine ranks and abilities that are attached to it, that'll make it around CR 25?... I think I'll just do that! XD
Sure, it doesn’t have any sort of special deity powers, but I can just have her do that to the NPCs. (And to get some things out of the way as for my plans...Yes, the PCs are getting some sort of protection against this goddess to prevent her from auto-TPKing them, and yes, she'll be mortal when they fight her, although it won't be through the PCs wielding/using some sort of special weapon or artifact. It's a bit too complicated to explain now, but I have a plan.)

[Superglucose]

CR 21.

Epic spellcasting </thread>

[QuantumSteve]

]I would take those class lvs with a grain of salt. For example, the elder titan in ELH is a mere cr30 even though it has 70 outsider HD. Outsider HD alone and non-complementary class lvs aren't really worth 1 cr each, especially when the class lvs already start incurring epic progression rules.

So 20 HD and 40 class lvs likely works out to a mere cr25-26. Then it is just a matter of determining how much those divine ranks add (which is the real challenge here).

A human with 40 class levels is a CR 40. How does adding 20 Outsider HD to that drop the CR 15 ranks? Even if you consider one of the classes non-associated, that's still a CR 30. And that's before the extra HD. A Cleric 20/Barb 20 with 20 Outsider HD is at least a CR 35. Probably more if you equip him as a 60th level NPC (Including a few minor artifacts the God made herself)

Lower ranked Demigods may actually be defeatable. A Cleric 30 Ascended Human with a DR of 1 or 2 should be about a CR 35 give or take depending on his SLAs. Add in some DM mojo, and you may even be able to take one out at LV 20.
Lesser Deities (Rank 6-10) Should only be defeatable in Epic, Lv 30 or so, and even then, only with some serious DM mojo.
Intermediate and Greater Deities (Rank 11+) should only be deafeatable via direct divine intervention. ex. PCs are bestowed temporary Divine Ranks by other Gods

[Runestar]

A human with 40 class levels is a CR 40. How does adding 20 Outsider HD to that drop the CR 15 ranks? Even if you consider one of the classes non-associated, that's still a CR 30. And that's before the extra HD. A Cleric 20/Barb 20 with 20 Outsider HD is at least a CR 35. Probably more if you equip him as a 60th level NPC (Including a few minor artifacts the God made herself)

I believe the npc cr guidelines are wholly inaccurate and tend to make the npc seem much tougher than he really is. You cannot possibly tell me with a straight face that a human fighter20 is supposed to be as challenging as a tarrasque.

Compare the aforementioned elder titan with a wizard 30. The former is superior in virtually every aspect. There is no way they can both have the same cr.

I am now using the elder titan as a baseline to compare this 20HD/barb20/cleric20 npc. The 2 classes don't really add much to each other (you can't cast spells while raging) and in terms of spellcasting, you are stuck at cleric20. 40 class lvs gives you +20 ebab, which isn't a lot (barring a very generous interpretation of the divine power cleric spell).

At any rate, he would be weaker than cr30. More or less on par with a great wyrm red dragon.

Of course, this assumes the elder titan is accurately priced at cr30.