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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Quote Originally Posted by imperialspectre View Post
    Penny Dreadful Gaming presents Legend - Alpha Release, Non-Casting Classes only

    The link's here. Enjoy.

    Some notes:
    • Anything listed here is now ToS legal, so you can take anything that catches your eye for a spin immediately.
    • Relics are here, though they will be in the economy section in the full release.
    • In the case of barbarian, you get all three tracks.
      In general, if a reading of a class doesn't give you an ability at each level, it's a typo on our part, and you should ask a question about it so that we can fix it.
    • Any urgent concerns or questions should be posted here but also PM'd to ImperialSpectre or me.
    Last edited by Doc Roc; 2010-05-18 at 01:17 AM.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Just finished reading the Barbarian so far.

    It is clearly intended to be another Tier 2 class; a balanced contribution to a fairly high-power game. That's not typically the type of game I like to play most, so I'm not sure I'd ever use this Barbarian.

    But I couldn't pass by without complimenting you guys: this is an elegant piece of class design, in a way that I WISH was so much more common in Homebrew. One ability every level; every single ability feels meaningful; the number of (independent) abilities never piles up and feels overwhelming; most of the abilities are very easy to understand; and most of the abilities feel like they'd be fairly good at not slowing down gameplay in actual play. My hearty congratulations!

    I did have a couple of minor questions to bring to your attention:
    • Does Powerful Rage grant increased Reach? It seems the answer is "yes," but this might be worth spelling out explicitly, at least for those who are used to playing D&D with Powerful Build.
    • How do rage-based temporary hit points interact with Heart of Fury? Do they become normal hit points (e.g., can be healed with normal healing magic), or is there a certain frequency with which the Barbarian can renew them (e.g. 1/encounter), or are they permanently lost when the Barbarian is damaged for the first time after reaching 19th level? I very much doubt the latter is intended, but it seems like the strictest interpretation of the class as written.
    • When using Shiva's Charge, do you have to decide your whole path before you roll your attack, or can you see which foes you hit and miss and adapt accordingly? (This might be irrelevant unless you also have an ability that lets you change directions while charging, I guess ...)
    • Is Deadly Presence intended to affect allies?
    • How many things will be immune to Mind-Affecting (or fear) in this system? It seems like that's a major achilles heel of the class ... and its own immunity to Mind-Affecting while raging makes it seem like that's a common immunity; but maybe it isn't, and the Barbarian just gets it because fear in general is kind of a major schtick for the class.
    • Kind of annoying that Ancestral Blessing is a 1/day ability, when all other class features manage to avoid having per-day dependency.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Woo! Legend finally out in Alpha format! =D

    I'll give it a read when I get the time, as it's become very much at a premium for me of late. <_<;;

    Will be back with comments.
    Last edited by Cieyrin; 2010-05-18 at 01:21 PM.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Those are some solid catches, Draz. I'll see what I can do for alpha 2.
    Thanks for the compliment, we really appreciate it.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Monk now has a table, some wording issues corrected. Redux of rogue dropping soon.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    I have talked with you, Doc Roc, about this many times as things have been developed. I can't help but say that the document is a big FAIL at formatting. Perhaps if redone in a format we're all more accustomed to, like the way every WotC product is set up table wise, with abilities clearly defined, then I think you will get a more solid response.

    That being said, there are things that positively unclear within the document. For example, the Barbarian: Do I get all three of these paths, or what? It's not expressed or explained clearly at all. It seems implied that I get all of them, but if that's the case, why go and break it apart into paths. Just make a single uniform class feature list. Separation of abilities looks great on the design table but looks poor on the product. Really, this just very incoherent to most folks (half the time myself included and I've read this over many times over the last several months!) and really needs to be fixed.

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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    The eventual plan is to allow tracks to be modular, so you could take two of the barbarian tracks plus a Giant racial track and be an ogre or some such. When that comes around, the formatting will make more sense.

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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    A... a little more sense, anyway.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Quote Originally Posted by ErrantX View Post
    I have talked with you, Doc Roc, about this many times as things have been developed. I can't help but say that the document is a big FAIL at formatting. Perhaps if redone in a format we're all more accustomed to, like the way every WotC product is set up table wise, with abilities clearly defined, then I think you will get a more solid response.

    That being said, there are things that positively unclear within the document. For example, the Barbarian: Do I get all three of these paths, or what? It's not expressed or explained clearly at all. It seems implied that I get all of them, but if that's the case, why go and break it apart into paths. Just make a single uniform class feature list. Separation of abilities looks great on the design table but looks poor on the product. Really, this just very incoherent to most folks (half the time myself included and I've read this over many times over the last several months!) and really needs to be fixed.

    -X
    Huh, I found it ... not perfect, but more readable than the average homebrew.

    And yeah, as to the purpose of the Tracks, apparently you had a reading comprehension FAIL yourself, as the document mentioned that swapping these "Tracks" is how multiclassing will work.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Draz74 View Post
    Huh, I found it ... not perfect, but more readable than the average homebrew.

    And yeah, as to the purpose of the Tracks, apparently you had a reading comprehension FAIL yourself, as the document mentioned that swapping these "Tracks" is how multiclassing will work.
    I think some heavy editing definitely would not hurt. I'm willing to throw down actual money dollars in exchange for services rendered, or offer trade of goods and services. Anyone interested?
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    First thoughts reading through the very beginning (just reading through barb now): Tracks is an interesting system. It seems workable. Are there any plans to integrate classes such as the war-marked into legend?

    As for the Barbarian: If you are constantly raging, are you even considered raging in your sleep? What if somebody casts a spell that calms you down; would you be fatigued for days on end, or just instantly start raging again?

    EDIT: Curse of Stolen Time: What attack do they lose? For example, if they lose one attack, does that mean a caster can't cast a spell, or does it just mean they lose one attack off a full attack if they try? Do they lose their highest or lowest base attack?

    EDIT X2: Also, Monk with the path of destruction multiclassed for the path of the dragon is a truly sick creature; every attack they make, they cleave all opponents around them, every time they get two hits in, they make another of themselves and get *another* free attack which can be cleaved, and they can take a full round of extra attacks, along with having absurd mobility and the ability to hit anywhere along the area. You could also do the same with barbarian losing their defensive track and taking the serpent track and using his large size to get 15 foot reach and chain trip the crap out of everybody. It's very good, as far as melee attack spam goes.
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2010-05-21 at 12:30 PM.

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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Some comments on the Paladin:

    General
    Technically, as written, Judgment can be the strand chosen with Dedication and Oath (Beside that Dedication and Oath can be chosen on the same strand). Which I can see someone arguing would get them abilities sooner, whether correct or not.

    You mentioned that the "Write your own creed" part seems to of disappeared. Bring that back.

    Judgement

    As written, If you have "See Invisibility" and The Knowing, you do not gain the benefits of it against invisible creatures. Should be fixable by specifying "creatures you can see within 5ft per paladin level."

    The Few needs to be reworded, as currently there is no way of knowing what "strongly aligned sentient" creatures are.

    Does the glow from "The Light" actually produce light? If so, is it suppressible, does it work in magical darkness, etc.

    The Truth might need a bit of specification on what a "Harmful effect" is. Time Hop, for instance, could be a harmful or beneficial effect based on who is casting.


    Protection
    It seems to me that the Shield should have some caveat for buffs that are not strictly spells. Unless you plan to make all such buffs spells.

    The Ready: When do they get these points, and does distance matter? For example, if my Ally teleports across the world without me, he is still my ally, and thus seems to qualify.

    Heroica
    First the formating suddenly changes. Which is weird. It also is missing the little description at the beginning.

    The Fire And Ice - If I hit a Red Dragon (Fire Immunity) two rounds in a row, is it now vulnerable to Fire?

    I can see the Just and the Unjust being a bit of a turn off, if your ally doesn't have the track. Though I'm not sure what exactly relics do. Also, does the Not A Paladin affect have a range, or does it work when your ally is half across the world?

    The Truth and the Folly - So if I attack it, suffer from say two miss chances, and end up missing, then my ally attacks it and suffers from one, it suddenly reverses the first part?
    I'd imagine a better way to do it is have it as an effect that lasts, say three rounds or until one of you make an attack not including the creature, activated when both you and your ally attack the same creature.

    The Quick and the Dead - Range Restriction. Also, would the Not paladin effect stop, say, a fireball cast by an enemy from hitting your ally?

    Aleph and Null - Range restriction.

    Smiting
    Struggle - For the stacking, would you have to hit four times (Twice in a row, reset, twice in a row), or Three times? (Letting the second hit count twice, essentially)

    Escalation should say "Failed save" not "Failed stun".

    Virtue
    I worry if Dawnsign might give too much healing, but I'm not aware of most of your assuming math. Otherwise looks good.

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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Further on Paladin, what exactly is defined as an Ally? Are allies people who aren't hostile, boon companions you've traveled with for a time or is it anybody you decide, as I could see this getting pretty silly if a Pally were to lead an army and each soldier had a pool.

    For Heroica, is it possible to be the 'Ally' of more than one Paladin with the strand? For example, say I have 3 Paladins, each with Heroica. 2 of the paladins choose the 3rd Paladin as their ally, does that Pally get all the bonii from all 3 and his allies just between him and themselves? And it just spirals from there, too.

    Finally, the Virtue strand's table and text seem to disagree a bit on what comes in where. Vitality Engine, something the table doesn't mention, shows up between Dawnsign and Holy Glyph and Renewal Engine, which isn't mentioned in the text shows up as the 6th ability, so I have no clue what's supposed to go where.

    Any other input up to Ranger has been more or less covered, so when I get into Ranger, I may be back with more.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    I'll take a look over it for readability edits if needed.
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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    The text for the rogue chapter is a hot mess. A lot of it is bearable and the mechanics seem ok. It is hard to tell because the text is verbose with a lot of textual flourishes that the author does not master. Reduce and clarify. Too much flavor text.

    Also, the demo is full of weird.

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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    Yeah, doing the work on it, Monk/barbarian multiclass, monk swapping discipline of the dragon for the path of destruction, is utterly insane.

    The core of this is Great Cleave, which is very powerful in its own right; doubling your attacks, essentially, which is a very powerful ability, and should probably be the capstone over the pitiful "enemies take 20 damage if they are near you" capstone.

    So you pick up a spiked chain, make it your weapon for path of the serpent, and at level 20, you get:

    A 5d8 base damage spiked chain with all the normal goodies. This is the least broken part.

    Flurry. -1 to your attacks for an extra attack, doubled with great cleave. This means we are up to five attacks, ten if they all hit, and cleaves are taken at your highest BAB, so if you *do* hit, then you're probably going to hit the cleaves as well. Even more fun, if each great cleave is its own attack action (the term isn't defined) then you can flurry each of them for two attacks per attack you hit, luckily nonrecursively.

    Hydra's Heads let you make mirror images pretty much guaranteed every round, at the cost of your swift action. You can also get another hit (and then another from cleave) from curse of stolen time.

    You can attack all enemies in your way on a charge, possibly? (again, language isn't clear on attack action) attacking each one twice via flurry, using Shiva's charge, then great cleave from all those attacks to taste. Your charge has +70 foot movement, so you're pretty well set to charge trip. Normally, I wouldn't be sure how the great cleaves work, but since you can attack any time during your move with deftly striking, I'm pretty sure you can use your cleaves on any of the targets you choose, although that makes little sense, but even being forced to just cleave those who are in range at the time is incredibly powerful.

    Then, you can use Thousand Sudden Cuts to double, then quadruple (via cleave) your attacks for the round.

    Possible situations that are realistic:

    You go all out and full attack somebody. You attack five times, cleave five times, then attack five more times and cleave five times. 20 attacks, or 30 if you can flurry your cleaves (which I say, for obvious reasons, you shouldn't be able to, but attack action is not defined at all).

    You charge towards the big bad, with, say, eight weaksauce minions in the way, hitting all of them, then you get another full action. You flurry to... either get an extra attack or hit each minion once, I'm not sure how it works, but you also cleave them, so you've *probably* taken down eight minions, and get a grand total of 12 attacks on the boss at minimum, more if he's in cleave range of the minions and you decide to hit them, and even more if you can flurry + charge for two attacks on each creature.

    You have large size, a reach weapon, and you're surrounded by foes. You whirlwind attack, cleave, recharge, and whirlwind attack again... which, by being surrounded by 24 foes, means you get 96 attacks off, with 2 to each foe and 48 to distribute to taste. If you can flurry whirlwind attack, because, again, attack actions are poorly defined... that's 192 attacks.

    You don't have your ultra powerful one per encounter double my doubled attacks capstone ready, so you just make clones of yourself. Every round. Or you steal attacks from enemies for two more attacks yourself, every round. So you've either got 10 attacks and an extra mirror image each round just by full attacking while moving normally (but very fast), or you've got 12 attacks and an unsaveable but confusing status effect on the enemy (does losing an attack mean attack roll using spells fail for the first one? Is it their highest or lowest BAB attack? I don't know).

    All this, wrapped up with all good saves, d8 hit die, great movement abilities that also work as a defense, and the ability to autorevive with true res if they die somehow.

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    Default Re: [d20] Legend Alpha 1

    I have to say, this all looks incredible, but I am a little miffed at the way you are handling multiclassing. It all just seems so restrictive. Am I right in seeing that you can only swap one track, and only at first level? Why did you make that decision anyway? I know, less choices, less room for unintended combinations, but I like my choices!

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