Party Needs <3.5>

[WoodenSword]

Here's the party:

Human Wizard (Abjuration)
Dwarf Barbarian
Ratling Ninja (OA)
Half-Succubus Ranger
Half-Elf Rogue
Elf Ranger
Human Paladin of Corellon

what's best for me? Base races + Orc and easy classes (we have 2 new players, so My DMs want me to be from PHBI or II or Completes) Any books. I'll cover feats.

[Eldariel]

(Cloistered) Cleric. Secondary offensive caster, primary defensive caster and team buffer, along with extra skill monkey. Alternatively, Bard/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso specializing in buffing and especially song (with that many warriors, the payoff would be unfathomable). Human is probably the best race within allowed sources. Otherwise, case could be made for Lesser Aasimar or Strongheart Halfling, but with those sources, Human > All.

[Asheram]

Eight players in a campaign? *shivers*

Anyhow, a bard'd be nice to see in such a group.

[WoodenSword]

Two more things:

We get a bonus feat that gives our feats every two levels and ability boosts every 3

and ONE PrC, which must be taken post-lv 10

[WoodenSword]

Eight players in a campaign? *shivers*

Anyhow, a bard'd be nice to see in such a group.

1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

2. One is a DM. Either the Paly or the Ninja, depending on the night

I had considered a Half-Orc Samurai or a Human Necromancer

[Eldariel]

Two more things:

We get a bonus feat that gives our feats every two levels and ability boosts every 3

and ONE PrC, which must be taken post-lv 10

Cloistered Cleric, then. Doesn't need PrCs (though mite as well go Contemplative). Bard is too dependent on getting two PrCs to go with, though until level 10 it'd be fine. But SC is necessary and yet loses Inspire Courage. With your sources, lack of access to Song of the Heart and Words of Creation hurts a lot too.

And bards are many things, but not weak. It's a matter of experience, but you can make a strong bard. Generally though, it does involve getting to PrC twice and proper feats. But giving everyone +12d6+12 damage and +12 to hit on every attack while maintaining full 20 level spellcasting, being able to break Polymorph limits and so on is anything but weak.

[WoodenSword]

Cloistered Cleric, then. Doesn't need PrCs (though mite as well go Contemplative). Bard is too dependent on getting two PrCs to go with, though until level 10 it'd be fine. But SC is necessary and yet loses Inspire Courage. With your sources, lack of access to Song of the Heart and Words of Creation hurts a lot too.

And bards are many things, but not weak. It's a matter of experience, but you can make a strong bard. Generally though, it does involve getting to PrC twice.

DM said no clerics, saying that "Cleric is broken" (Note; This is because I ran a Cliostered Cleric/Sovereign Speaker)

And ALL 3.0 and 3.5 sourcebooks are allowed

[Telonius]

1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

2. One is a DM. Either the Paly or the Ninja, depending on the night

I had considered a Half-Orc Samurai or a Human Necromancer

Bard is weak, but you're considering Samurai? Please tell me you mean the Oriental Adventures version. (It's still inferior to the Bard, but not as ridiculously weak as the CWar Samurai)

[lsfreak]

Bard with DFI optimization, then. Bard/warblade would be very good as well, sacrifice a bit of Inspire Courage, but that's outside your list of available books for base classes.

[Divide by Zero]

1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

I don't know what you're talking about. Bard 20 is perfectly viable, especially with splatbook support, and Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 is about on par with a sorcerer.

[Eldariel]

DM said no clerics, saying that "Cleric is broken" (Note; This is because I ran a Cliostered Cleric/Sovereign Speaker)

And ALL 3.0 and 3.5 sourcebooks are allowed

Then Bard. Bard/Sublime Chord is a solid full caster, which with a modicum of optimization means you'll be stronger than the rest of the party combined save for the Wizard, and you multiply the power of all the martial types in the party while at it so they won't feel overshadowed.

Here:
X Good Human Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10
1. Dragontouched [Dragon Magic]
H. Dragonfire Inspiration [Dragon Magic]
3. Song of the Heart [Eberron Campaign Settings]
6. Words of Creation [Book of Exalted Deeds]

Mw. Drums (or anything that increases the offensive output of Inspire Courage) [item - Complete Adventurer], Inspirational Boost [spell - Spell Compendium], Vest of Legend [item - Dungeon Master's Guide II], Badge of Valor [item - Magic Item Compendium] combine to give you:

• +5 Bard-levels for song abilities [Vest of Legend]
• +1 to Inspire Courage bonus [Inspirational Boost]
• -1 Morale to saves, +1 to the Damage-bonus [Mw. Drums]
• +1 to Inspire Courage [Badge of Valor]
• +1 to effects of Bard-songs [Song of the Heart]
• x2 Bardic Music effects with trivial nonlethal damage [Words of Creation]
• Ability to give +Xd6 energy damage matching the type of your draconic heritage instead of +X damage/+X to hit with your Inspire Courage (songs last 5 turns after you stop performing, 10 with Lingering Song [Complete Adventurer], so you can stack the benefits)
• 9th level spellcasting [Sublime Chord]

This means you can sing for epic bonuses while casting (and since you're your own ally, you also buff yourself and can hit quite well if desired, especially with Wizardly buffs...Polymorph if you aren't afraid of being a bit overpowered).

Like, your Inspire Courage on level 6 is:
1 base + 1 Badge + 1 Drums + 1 Inspirational Boost + 1 Song of the Heart x2 Words of Creation = +10/+10, or +10d6 Dragonfire Inspiration (or both, usually); this is not counting Vest of Legend which you can't afford by WBL at this point yet.

[Keld Denar]

1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

Ah, sign up for re-education, my friend. A properly built Bard is a dramatic force multiplier. Inspire Courage is really easy to optimize with enough sourcebooks, and can DOUBLE many classes base attack bonus up until about level 8. Its pretty silly, actually, especially with a large group.

What you need:
Inspirational Boost - Spell - Spell Compendium
Badge of Valor - Magic Item - Magic Item Compendium (in the sets)
Song of the Heard - Feat - Eberron Campaign Setting

Those alone result in a +4 base Inspire Courage by ~ 3rd level, as Badge of Valor is dirt cheap and Insp Boost is a 1st level spell.

Other useful things:
Melodic Casting - Feat - Complete Mage, doesn't interupt song to cast spells or use spell trigger items, also allows you to forgo concentration completely with perform checks.

Dragonfire Inspiration - Feat - Dragon Magic, wanna do more damage than your entire party combined? This little gem turns your normal +x/+x Inspire Courage into a lethal +xd6 elemental damage. Want to add a +4d6 point fire blast on EVERY allies weapon swing, including your own? This puppy is STRONG. Use with caution.

Sublime Chord - PrC - Complete Arcane, if you can only have 1 PrC, this is the one you want. Normally people combine it with Virtuoso to progress casting, but if you are that limited, this is the one you want. It turns your mid level bard into a mid level sorcerer almost overnight. You still keep all of your normal bardy goodness you've been doing for 10 levels, but now you have higher level spell slots and access to the entire Wiz/Sorc list up to 9th level spells. Its the late-game pick-me-up that every bard needs.

Song of the White Raven - Feat - Tome of Battle, use this for creating a Bardblade or Bardsader. Stacks your Bard levels and your Warblade/Crusader levels for the purpose of determining the strength of your IC. Take 3-4 levels of Bard, then hop into either or both of these classes to pick up martial manevuers. This allows you to hop into melee and kick ass and take names, all the while using your optimized Inspire Courage (or Dragonfire Inspiration) to boost your own combat prowass and that of your allies.

So yea, Bards in 3.5 with full access to books is actually REALLY strong. I highly suggest you try something like this, you will be surprised. Especailly in your group, as it seems that you have a lot of TWF type character who benefit immensely from bonus damage like DFI.

EDIT:
I don't like Words of Creation. I don't like any feat that imposes RP restrictions. Its an [Exalted] feat, meaning that it can also be irrevokably taken away by the DM for no reason other than spite. It also pushes the power creep most into the realm of TO, as while +4d6 fire damage at 3rd level is strong, +8d6 fire damage at 3rd level is stupidly rediculous.

[WoodenSword]

1. Yes, the OA version

2. No ToB. Will confuse the noobies

3. I hate bard, because every bard I played ever was killed off by the DM. He won't allow me to play a bard for real, cuz they die randomly. Such as: "Make a fortitude save" "rolls a 19" "You failed the save, get explosive diarreah and crap out your heart. make a new character"

[gbprime]

1. Bard is a joke class. Some jerk made up bard to make weak PCs

Clearly someone doesn't use enough sourcebooks.

Words of Creation at level 3 stacked with Inspirational Boost. Double your bonus plus one. +1 bonus at level 1, +2 at level 2, +3 at level 3. Becomes +5 at level 8, +7 at 14th, and +9 at 20th.

Sublime Chord PrC at level 11 is optional, turning the bard into a decent wizard for those lovely "change the conditions of the fight" spells and allowing you to take a reserve feat to blast things with supernatural damage dice.

[Jarian]

3. I hate bard, because every bard I played ever was killed off by the DM. He won't allow me to play a bard for real, cuz they die randomly. Such as: "Make a fortitude save" "rolls a 19" "You failed the save, get explosive diarreah and crap out your heart. make a new character"

You would seem to have DM problems, rather than Bard problems, then.

If he won't let you have a Cleric, then play an Archivist. What's your starting level?

[pres_man]

Favored Soul

[Keld Denar]

Your DM is a douche. Find a new one.

[WoodenSword]

We start at 2nd level. again, the party's pretty balanced. I just need to be the final rung on the ladder. We have 2 healers (paly and ranger) and a fulltime caster (The wizard)

[Telonius]

1. Yes, the OA version

2. No ToB. Will confuse the noobies

3. I hate bard, because every bard I played ever was killed off by the DM. He won't allow me to play a bard for real, cuz they die randomly. Such as: "Make a fortitude save" "rolls a 19" "You failed the save, get explosive diarreah and crap out your heart. make a new character"

Ah. So the original statement should read more like:
1. DM is a joke. Some jerk. Made so bard is unplayable.

[WoodenSword]

Ah. So the original statement should read more like:
1. DM is a joke. Some jerk. Made so bard is unplayable.

Oi! The DM's my best bro. Granted, he makes me mad, but come on! I need to play by his rules or not at all. (as in, i quit D&D forever)

[gbprime]

DM said no clerics, saying that "Cleric is broken" (Note; This is because I ran a Cliostered Cleric/Sovereign Speaker)

Cleric is not broken, cleric is BREAKABLE. Huge difference, and entirely the fault of the GM if he lets you do it.

And no Bards either? Okaaaay...

A divine caster with mass buffs is really what is needed with that mix. If you can't use cleric, your choices are Favored Soul (ick), Druid, Spirit Shaman, and Shujenka. Druid lets you chew on people's faces, spirit shaman has some interesting toys and the druid spell list, and Shujenka makes a superior healer of the bunch (at the expense of a decent spell list).

I'd recommend Druid and take Spontaneous Healer, just in case a healing spell is needed in a pinch. Once you hit 5th you spend your time in wild shape, or if you want immediate satisfaction, forget Wild Shape and take the UA alt class that gives you Favored enemy and Wisdom bonus to AC. Then you summon Walls of Meat for a living.

[dextercorvia]

<snip>
what's best for me? <snip>

Find a DM that won't screw with you for no reason. Alternatively, consider that the DM is screwing with you because you have an attitude problem, and fix that.

[pres_man]

We start at 2nd level. again, the party's pretty balanced. I just need to be the final rung on the ladder. We have 2 healers (paly and ranger) and a fulltime caster (The wizard)

Yeah, but the healers are going to be pretty poorly equipped to deal with anything that is not hp damage in the long run.

[Gnaeus]

Favored Soul, Archivist, or Druid.

I would go Druid. Focus on crowd control and buffs. Make your pet into a flying mount for the wizard and stay in Desmodu Bat form yourself (since your party seems to have melee covered and they don't need someone else eating the enemies face.

[WoodenSword]

I don't feel like being a Band-Aid despenser... Too little talent for me. I mean, it'd be needed, but I don't play band-aid despensers. EVER. Let the ranger and paladin do that...

[Maho-Tsukai]

With all those warriors, the team lacks serious spellcasting power. If I where you I would take up an arcane or divine caster class. It's too bad cleric is banned, a cleric would be good on this team, but there are other options. Assuming wizard is not also banned due to powerlevel, a wizard would do the team some good. He could handle mobs and provide some team buffs though not as many as a cleric or bard. If you don't think wizard is what you want to take, there are plenty of other arcane and divine caster classes.

You may want to try a shugenja. Their spell list becomes extremely limited when you chose an element, but if your DM allows you to use D20 Rokugan content(NOT wizard's OA book, the ones which are made by a third party..it's basically just books which expand OA's Rokugan setting and give things like actual martial arts moves for marital classes and enough spells to make the shugenja spell list rival the size wizard/sorcerer spell list..) then a shugenja has a lot of options. Shugena is also not nearly as broken as wizard or other spellcasters due to their elemental limitations, but are still powerful enough to aid them team if need be. A shugenja can be a healbot(water) if you want to go that way, but can also be a blaster(fire), illusionist type(air) or a buff master(earth)...If you don't want to be a band-aid or buff dispenser, I would say go fire or air. Fire is a fairly strait forward, "wanna-be warmage" type caster who gets a few other options, but for the most part is a blaster. Air however, has it's own special feel. It's closest in play style to a illusionist wiz but also gets some other tricks which include teleportation and other travel spells.

Also, you mentioned necromancer? I take it you mean a wizard necromancer? If you where to play a wizard I would not specialize in necromancy. Wizards make poor necromancers unless you use homebrew(frank and K are great for that purpose). If you want a real necromancer who actually animates the dead your best options are cleric and Dread Necromancer. Since cleric is banned, that leaves the Dread Necromancer as far as necromancy goes. Sure, you will start off as a melee mage who takes tomb tainted soul to constantly heal themselves with their negative energy touch, but if you make it to level 8, you are a better necromamcer then a cleric. You will get the most undead of anybody.

But if dread necromancer is not your thing and you still want to be a necro? Perhaps you should try the oriental necromancer, my namesake the Maho-Tsukai. Their spell list is very limited, but if you can use D20 Rokugan it's expanded to include some powerful spells. Maho-Tsukai is a PrC, though, so you would want to take levels in shugenja to get to it since shugenja is the only caster class which can learn Maho spells(as off element spells) and thus gain enough taint to enter the Maho-Tsukai class.(You need a certain taint score to get in and the easiest way to do that (if you include Rokugan stuff ) is through a shugenja who learns some maho spells. , so a shugenja is the ideal way to rack up taint fast without becoming undead or something equally difficult to do.) Maho is also an evil only class, though, but if you where going to play a necromancer to began with then your party seams not to have an issue with evil stuff.

[Eldariel]

I don't feel like being a Band-Aid despenser... Too little talent for me. I mean, it'd be needed, but I don't play band-aid despensers. EVER. Let the ranger and paladin do that...

They suck at it. Get Wands of Lesser Vigor paid for by everybody equally and that'll have your curing covered for life leaving a real caster only required for Restoration, Revivify and up. But honestly, Druid can heal out-of-combat. In-combat healing is for chumps anyways. That said, you don't need another melee. Besides, melee sucks, why would you want to play one? Play a controller caster.

You have 6 martial types and 1 caster. Do the math. Cleric and Bard not ok? Druid, Archivist and Favored Soul are next. If those don't work, play a controller/buffer Wizard. Honestly, just Polymorph someone into a Remorhaz or a 12-Headed Hydra once and never look back.

[gbprime]

Except that paladin and ranger SUCK at it. [Edit... you beat me to it. ]They can use a wand. At second level, do you have much in the way of a wand budget?

There's no substitute for a caster dumping out the biggest Cure he can cast, especially when you hit Heal or Mass cure levels. And you want to be able to cast it spontaneously so you don't have to waste spell slots on them that could otherwise be buffing or killing.

[dextercorvia]

Your list of classes that you would outright object to is rather long, and probably should have been included in your first post.

How about a monk? They have no healing ability whatsoever.

[Gnaeus]

No one suggested being a Band-Aid dispenser. Favored Soul, Archivist, and Druid are all full of win from buffs and other combat spells. Healing can be accomplished out of combat with a wand of lesser vigor. Don't be a heal-bot, be a full caster. (Oh, forgot the Spirit Shaman. They're pretty cool also, especially in a group that doesn't need an extra tank.)

Edit: Wow. super ninjed.

@ Maho, Dread Necro would have made my list also, but he said only classes from PHB 1+2 or Completes.

Edit 2: Oops. That means no Archivist as well. Forgot it was in HoH.