Rule 0: Stopping broken-ness with the power of DM Fiat

[Private-Prinny]

As I've looked around some of the TO stuff, I've noticed that a lot of it depends on a favorable interpretation of vague rules. What would happen if the DM decided to go in a different direction?

Note: This is about using DM Fiat to get rid of broken things. If the rules don't work that way, you can make them.

For example, "The +2 Strength from Festering Anger is caused by becoming increasingly angry, which is a negative effect. You are immune." (Cancer Mage)

"Your spell list and the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list are not the same thing." (Shadow Miracles)

"Since it's centered on you, you fly in every direction at the same time. You die. No save." (Locate City Bomb)

Tainted Scholar and Incantatrix are still stupidly powerful, but it's a start. Any other cheese that you think needs to go?

[Greenish]

As I've looked around some of the TO stuff, I've noticed that a lot of it depends on a favorable interpretation of vague rules. What would happen if the DM decided to go in a different direction?

Do you know what "TO" stands for in this context?

[The Rabbler]

candles of invocation are fiercely guarded by a sect of... wizard/incantrix(es?) and the secret to making them have been lost to time.

[Private-Prinny]

Do you know what "TO" stands for in this context?

Theoretical Optimization, IIRC. I'm just asking what you would do to make sure that it never, ever sees the light of day.

[Prodan]

For example, "The +2 Strength from Festering Anger is caused by becoming increasingly angry, which is a negative effect. You are immune." (Cancer Mage)

Nonsense. Anger's a positive thing in DnD. Just ask any barbarian.

Very politely. While bowing.

"Your spell list and the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list are not the same thing." (Shadow Miracles)

There are a few easy ways around this that actually make the shadowcraft mage slightly more powerful...

"Since it's centered on you, you fly in every direction at the same time. You die. No save." (Locate City Bomb)

I actually doubt the Locate City Bomb works based on technical grounds. You might want to look into those.

[Drakevarg]

All dieties are essentially facets of the DM (i.e., they win, no discussion.). Start screwing with reality too much and they will squish you like the insignficant ant you are.

^This is generally how I solve such problems.^

[awa]

i figure pun pun generally goes something like this he starts saying the magic words to summon the demon and an inevitable pops in behind him and implodes him before he can finish the sentence. High level divination not just for pcs.

[Divide by Zero]

The point of the game is to have fun. If something breaks the game to the point that it is no longer fun, the DM has every right to just flat-out say no, justification be damned.

[AslanCross]

i figure pun pun generally goes something like this he starts saying the magic words to summon the demon and an inevitable pops in behind him and implodes him before he can finish the sentence. High level divination not just for pcs.

I figure Pun-pun is remedied by the swift and judicious application of a steel chair to the player's cranium. Anyone who actually tries it in game needs a lobotomy.

[Temotei]

i figure pun pun generally goes something like this he starts saying the magic words to summon the demon and an inevitable pops in behind him and implodes him before he can finish the sentence. High level divination not just for pcs.

Pun-Pun invents an ability that makes him invincible, invulnerable, never-aging, immune to everything except good effects that he/she is willing to take on, etc.

There's no way to win against Pun-Pun, whoever you are! Unless you're the DM. Eh.

[Drakevarg]

Pun-Pun invents an ability that makes him invincible, invulnerable, never-aging, immune to everything except good effects that he/she is willing to take on, etc.

There's no way to win against Pun-Pun, whoever you are! Unless you're the DM. Eh.

He's implying the Inevitable shows up and skewers the little twerp BEFORE he becomes a god-like entity that only the DM can erase from existance.

[Temotei]

He's implying the Inevitable shows up and skewers the little twerp BEFORE he becomes a god-like entity that only the DM can erase from existance.

Ah. I'm not familiar with sarrukhs, so "the demon" didn't tell me much.

That makes sense, I suppose.

EDIT: It's not as fun as throwing several books, a chair, a table, a hammer, three pencils, a pen, four large magazines, and a television at the player though.

[Drakevarg]

Ah. I'm not familiar with sarrukhs, so "the demon" didn't tell me much.

That makes sense, I suppose.

EDIT: It's not as fun as throwing several books, a chair, a table, a hammer, three pencils, a pen, four large magazines, and a television at the player though.

I get the feeling that I can make a pretty good guess at the contents of the room you're in now.

[Flame of Anor]

(Cancer Mage)

(Shadow Miracles)

(Locate City Bomb)

Tainted Scholar and Incantatrix

Can someone link me to where these exploits are described? I always get a kick out of looking at the crazy loophole-using builds.

[Temotei]

I get the feeling that I can make a pretty good guess at the contents of the room you're in now.

Include a Cheez-its box, a Club crackers box, a bag of Doritos, a bag of...Jalapeno cheddar chips...a McDonald's shake container, three plus two plus three (eight) cups, a Capri Sun pouch (which I will respect by not throwing), a bed, a clothing container, two large, sharp sticks, err...nine trophies (go-karting), a board with a bunch of Cross Country and Track awards and pictures, a lei, a calendar, a large printer, this monitor, this computer, the router, other computer equipment, etc., three hats, a play sword (styrofoam), a garter, a picture frame, a religious item I should take down, my phone, a ton of CDs, a laptop, a laptop...holder...tray...thing, a mouse, mousepad, several pieces of paper, a manual for the printer, a garbage can, a hamper, a nightstand, a wood likeness of me in my old go-kart, more picture frames...a clock, two water bottles, a backpack (probably about twenty pounds, but maybe more...I'm terrible at judging weight), a basket full of laundry, laundry on the floor, two power strips, a fan, and a lamp. And pillows. And an extra mattress on top of my normal mattress. And a gaming system mounted on top of a gaming cabinet-type thing holding a bunch of old games, a map of Tamriel, and a stand holding up my printer, and I think that's it. Oh, and Klondike, but I would never throw him. Good old polar bear that can fly and doesn't afraid and all that jazz. Oh, and a bird...thing.

I have no life, starting now. Gods, I didn't realize how much I'd typed.

Oh, and a pirate bandage kit.

[rubycona]

There's always the "The Gods collectively have decided that you are a threat to their existence, and have chosen to band together and twist the fabric of the universe such that you no longer exist.

In case you need clarification, dear player, that's a big 'screw you' from me to you. Reroll your character." approach.

I haven't had to use it yet. But I'm ready.

Btw, that list of stuff in the room was oddly entertaining.

[Temotei]

Btw, that list of stuff in the room was oddly entertaining.

I was pretty entertained jumping around my room, looking for more stuff to type about.

[Drakevarg]

You certaintly like yer noms.

Also, a map of Tamriel? Sweet. Mine's only of Cyrodiil.

I'm somewhat ashamed that I actually had to run over and check the map to spell check that. (Two "i"s? Two "r"s? Two "l"s?)

[Temotei]

You certaintly like yer noms.

Also, a map of Tamriel? Sweet. Mine's only of Cyrodiil.

Compiled.

It's essentially a bunch of maps put together on the wall. Kind of fun.

[Drakevarg]

Someday somebody will get bored and make GoogleTamriel. And I will be happy.

[Greenish]

Can someone link me to where these exploits are described? I always get a kick out of looking at the crazy loophole-using builds.

Shadowcraft mage handbook should get you started. It can do ridiculous things with Silent Image.

[lsfreak]

Someday somebody will get bored and make GoogleTamriel. And I will be happy.

Well, there's Cyrodiil and Morrowind, but Tamriel as a whole hasn't been released in such detail. Yet. But we can hope and wait.

[Drakevarg]

Well, there's Cyrodiil and Morrowind, but Tamriel as a whole hasn't been released in such detail. Yet. But we can hope and wait.

One of the things I would ask for if given three wishes is for Bethesda to release a game that takes place in all of Tamriel, built to scale. With BioWare writing the story.

But that's utterly off topic.

Yeah, I'd say Bolt of Divine Retribution is my favorite method of stopping munchkinry.

[Temotei]

Well, there's Cyrodiil and Morrowind, but Tamriel as a whole hasn't been released in such detail. Yet. But we can hope and wait.

Hooray for broken maps taped together!

Of course, it's kind of incomplete with some regions too small to be the whole thing. Oh well.

Spoiler

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Huh. Interesting. Just found this.

[Lord Vukodlak]

There are a few easy ways around this that actually make the shadowcraft mage slightly more powerful...

Do tell, [maybe just PM as to not derail the thread]

One of the things I would ask for if given three wishes is for Bethesda to release a game that takes place in all of Tamriel, built to scale. With BioWare writing the story.

Play The Elderscrolls III Daggerfall, When it was released in 1994 it had the largest explorable game world in history, no game sense has even approached that record.
The later games traded quantity for quality

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I much prefer stepping out of character for a moment and saying "No, that's just going to ruin the game for everyone else. The rules might say that, but I'm going to judge it otherwise, cause it's silly."

I mean, daft rules exploits are fun to think about, but if they wreck the game, then a good player will know they shouldn't be invoked, let alone a good DM.

[Eldariel]

Can someone link me to where these exploits are described? I always get a kick out of looking at the crazy loophole-using builds.

I couldn't find the original thread, but Locate City Bomb is somewhat detailed there. And...well, Cancer Mage simply stacks diseases for insane bonuses. See here; Previn's post has a very brief description of some stuff.

[Ingus]

TO is "theorical optimization" so it is not meant to be played.
You can see it as a theorical, mental exercise. So, in this spirit, the counter-arguments on TO should be seen as a mere mental exercise. So...

Pun Pun easiest counter: [From Deities and Demigods, page 28] "Portfolio sense: /.../ Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have."
Any greater deity of magic should sense that a stupid kobold in few months will try to become a divinity. Is the divinity eager to have a fellow god of ubermunchinkness? I doubt it. So he/she would send one of his/her fellow minions (or, to be large, his/her avatar) to polymorph the stupid kobold in something like a chicken or a beef (baleful polymorph or alter reality, just to be more ubermunchkin) and see what he can do then.

Locate City Bomb: Very cheesy. You apply a metamagic feat to do cold damage, then a metamagic feat to do do electricity damage, then a metamagic feat to do electricity/sonic damage.
RAW mechanics suggest that all the metamagic feats apply in the same time and you can't choose the order of application. So the build doesn't work.
It works only in a questionable RAI interpretation and when in RAI, you can always reply "I'm not sure that rules are intended to let you use a divination spell to locate a city in order to do a paramount amount of damage".

Festering Anger is as it is. No RAW, maybe neither RAI interpretation can fix it. It is just an overpower disease that should be banned from any game. No interpretation fix here.

I'm still documenting on shadow miracle

[Runestar]

RAW mechanics suggest that all the metamagic feats apply in the same time and you can't choose the order of application. So the build doesn't work.

The FAQ suggests that if you were to twin and empower a spell, you can choose to have it deal twice, maximum damage. Which implies that you are in fact allowed to apply metamagic feats in the order that is most beneficial to you (which the exception of empower+maximize).

[Ingus]

The FAQ suggests that if you were to twin and empower a spell, you can choose to have it deal twice, maximum damage. Which implies that you are in fact allowed to apply metamagic feats in the order that is most beneficial to you (which the exception of empower+maximize).

Could you please link, quote or otherwise give me the chanche read it?
Thank you ;)