Why arcane spellcasters aren't really that awesome

[Darklord Xavez]

I know what you're thinking, but please don't all use the same argument over and over.

More to the point: I have seen that many people greatly overestimate arcane spellcasters, especially the wizard. The wizard isn't too powerful, actually, due to the fact that they only get a MAXIMUM of 4 spells per day (5 for lower-level spells), assuming a base race and no magic items to boost intelligence. Once they run out, they're just walking fleshbags, which make for excellent targets.

Sorcerers are also pretty weak. Their spells are very limited, but they get more than the wizard (about 6 per day). They are the best spellcasters in one-offs or small series of adventures, but are usually a bit worse outside of combat and in long campaigns.

We're not even going to mention the bard. They're a useless class and are just too cheesy (not in the cheating sense either) unless you can actually give your character a unique personality and make up songs on the spot.
-Xavez

[Rixx]

Not that I disagree on disliking the general attitude of nonmagical classes being worthless, but isn't stating your opinion and telling people not to argue with you a little pointless?

Also, bards are awesome.

[sofawall]

I was being mean.

[Darklord Xavez]

Not that I disagree on disliking the general attitude of nonmagical classes being worthless, but isn't stating your opinion and telling people not to argue with you a little pointless?

Also, bards are awesome.

I'm telling people to not use the same argument over and over. I will edit my OP to say so.
-Xavez

[The Glyphstone]

....this is satire, right? Please tell me it's satire. You didn't hide any white text in your post, so I'm worried.

[Doc Roc]

Rather than a persuasive argument, would you like some empirical evidence?
I have nearly 120 duels, three specialist challenges, and one core-only dungeon crawl for you, if you like.

[Eldariel]

And with Magic Items (Wand of Lesser Mnemonic Enhancement, anyone? Pearls of Power, Int-boosters, I needn't go on), racial Int-bonus and so on, they'll have plenty of spell slots. And one spell slot is generally enough per encounter early on and later on they have enough to burn. Yes, the limit exists, but Wizards (and Sorcs) can handle it. Scrolls and Wands further enhance their durability, as does their ability to rest safely in just about any environment (thanks to extradimensional safehavens like Rope Tricks or Magnificent Mansions).

Are you honestly thinking people who have played this game for years and know it inside-out haven't encountered and overcome this problem? Do you think people would say they are as strong as people do, if this problem were a real showstopper? Give us some credit, man. And the same arguments? They need to be repeated as long as it seems they are not considered. If people desiring to argue Wizards' power covered and considered the damnable arguments before posting, we'd save a lot of time (and most of the threads for that matter). Since the whole discussion is readily available on the search function among others, I'm really a bit surprised by its frequency of appearance.

[Darklord Xavez]

....this is satire, right? Please tell me it's satire.

It is the TRUTH! I like arcane spellcasting classes (bard doesn't count as a class in my opinion), but I like the other classes equally well (as long as you optimize with the fighter).
-Xavez

[Greenish]

loltroll.

No, really, just loltroll.

Don't be so harsh on him, he's really new (as in "monks are totally awesome"-new).

I'll copy-pasta Lycantromancer from the other thread:

I say wizard 5.

No, really.

With a 5th-level wizard, I can deal Xd6 force damage (with X being arbitrarily high numbers of thousands, Reflex save for half) using a book full of explosive runes and an area dispel. In a 10' radius, no less. The guy at the epicenter of the explosion? No saves.

Infinite wishes and armies of epic creatures, no XP cost. A scroll of planar binding and some careful prep-work is all that's needed. Bind an efreeti, trap it in a magic circle against evil with a curtain around it, in a room covered in large, easy-to-read explosive runes, and torture it with debuffs and other cruelties until it fails its Charisma check (and buff yours up until you overpower it handily - not hard). Wish for simulacrums of more efreet, subservient to you, then start wishing for more simulacrums for more wishes. You can upgrade to solars at any time you like, then on to epic level monstrosities, as you wish.

Both are core-only, and pretty easy.

There's more, but should I really bother at this point?

[Morty]

I'm never going to cease to be amazed by the people's willingness to assume that if someone uses an argument they disagree with it must obviously mean they're overlooking some facts.

[Irreverent Fool]

More flames! It's the only way to kill a troll!
Red is green. Don't refute me with the tired old "red isn't green" argument. Be original.
obnoxious
sig

[The Glyphstone]

It is the TRUTH! I like arcane spellcasting classes (bard doesn't count as a class in my opinion), but I like the other classes equally well (as long as you optimize with the fighter).
-Xavez

Mind = broken.

I'll let other people take to the fight now, who are more articulate than myself and have the numbers to back up their arguments. But trust me, you're not the first person to try and decide that arcane spellcasters lack endurance.

[Gorbash]

More to the point: I have seen that many people greatly overestimate arcane spellcasters, especially the wizard. The wizard isn't too powerful, actually, due to the fact that they only get a MAXIMUM of 4 spells per day (5 for lower-level spells), assuming a base race and no magic items to boost intelligence. Once they run out, they're just walking fleshbags, which make for excellent targets.

Erm... You do realize that they have 4 spells... of every level? And why are you assuming no magic boost to intelligence? That's the same why I could say - Barbarians can do absolutely no damage at all, assuming they have no hands.

Grey Elf is also a base race. So even with base race and no magic boosts, you can pump up starting Int of 22 (by taking Venerable, or whatever age category gives you +2 mental and -3 physical stats) with no magic items (I'm indulging you on this one) which gives them additional 8 spells per day. Consider in the fact that you can play a Focused Specialist too, giving you base 6 spells per day (base) and these additional 8 and let's say you're 11th lvl that means you have around 40 spells per day.

[Mastikator]

This isn't wow when you just keep on grinding and grinding. Running out of spells is only a problem at lower levels.

[Darklord Xavez]

Don't be so harsh on him, he's really new (as in "monks are totally awesome"-new).

I'll copy-pasta Lycantromancer from the other thread:

About me being "new": Tha'ts also being harsh (misplaced apostrophe for your convenience). Monks are the best possible class in 3.5 if you have at least two +3 or better abilities and 2 +2 abilities. But I digress.

About lycanthromancer's post: Contrary to popular belief, Explosive Runes only detonate when read out loud. Unless your'e playing D&D OOTS style, which wouldn't work.

@ sofawall: that was just plain rude. Onto the ignore list you go!
-Xavez

[pinwiz]

Before I tell this story, please note that I don't claim to be good at D&D.

The power of spells is great enough to overcome the endurance of non-casters. I had a Crusader, who could do a lot of damage with some ok effects and last a long time. I duelled my friend 11 times. He played a bard. Guess how many times he beat me? 11 times. If I had gotten lucky, yes I could've beaten him, but lucky doesn't match good. He would Hold person me and then coup de grace me. Not that I had the best saves (level 7 or 8 by the way), but it worked every time. I almost killed him ONCE.

And wizard and sorcerer endurance is moot if they can teleport away as their final spell. The strength of spells is in their versatility.

[sofawall]

You say 4 spell slots per level? I say 10 spells per encounter (using the DMG recommended guidelines).

You say half those spells are so weak as to be useless? I say blind as a level, 2 spell doesn't seem weak.

I say Focused Specialist. You say spell school loss. I say it doesn't matter much when you ban Enchantment, Evocation and Necromancy.

You say no int-boost and no magic items? I say why not? Also, I say let's say Fighters can no longer have stat boosts or magic items. I think Wizards come out ahead there.

So, spells slots looking more like 8+ of each level, so 24 levels 7-9, so 6 encounter-ending spells per encounter, with another 50 or so left over to hit any night-time ambushes with.

[Wings of Peace]

Dragonfire Inspiration called. It wants to rape you.

[2xMachina]

This is only true if you're running it through a Solo Endurance crawl.

With support, 1 BC spell can help kill stuff.
4 encounters per day doesn't use all that many spell

Solo, and lots of encounters? Sorry, you're dry.

[Greenish]

Grey Elf is also a base race. So even with base race and no magic boosts, you can pump up starting Int of 22 (by taking Venerable, or whatever age category gives you +2 mental and -3 physical stats)

Going up to venerable actually gives you +3 to mental stats and -6 to physical ones. You can get around the penalties with a dragonwrought kobold.

[kamikasei]

About lycanthromancer's post: Contrary to popular belief, Explosive Runes only detonate when read out loud. Unless your'e playing D&D OOTS style, which wouldn't work.

Two things.

- What's that based on?
- The "box of explosive runes" trick uses a dispel magic as the trigger, not a reading.

[The Glyphstone]

This is only true if you're running it through a Solo Endurance crawl.

With support, 1 BC spell can help kill stuff.
4 encounters per day doesn't use all that many spell

Solo, and lots of encounters? Sorry, you're dry.

Reserve feats would like to have a word with you. Right after you check with the mangled corpse of the noncaster over there, who ran out of HP long before you ran out of spell slots.

[gbprime]

Wizards, bards, and sorcerers ARE in fact very weak... until you give them feats and/or equipment. Then things even out considerably.

Honestly, if you find yourself in a campaign where the wizard frequently runs low on battery power, a reserve feat is the cure for you. Throw in a staff, and you've solved the problem without sacrificing versatility.

Sorcerers need prestige classes more than the other two. Do that and they're fine.

And bard... bard DOESN'T need a prestige class (or even any equipment at all) if you take 1 feat and 1 specific 1st level spell. Then they're awesome at buffing party members. Search this board to find out which feat and which spell.

[Darklord Xavez]

I'm never going to cease to be amazed by the people's willingness to assume that if someone uses an argument they disagree with it must obviously mean they're overlooking some facts.

I think you're right. Everybody on this forum is a bit stubborn and rude to those who are outside the norm (as in, wizards win every time and monks lose every time and only magic-using classes are any good and factotums are awesome). By the way, I disagree strongly with the items in the parentheses, and not everyone has the same beliefs, so if you are like me, you shouldn't be disliked.
-Xavez

[2xMachina]

RE: Explosive Runes.

Nowhere does it say read out loud.

Looking at it, and reading is enough.

[Gauntlet]

I disagree, Xavez.

Let me quote the relevant section for you.

attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion.

Yeah, I'm afraid you're wrong there.

On the DMG recommended 4 encounters per day, tell me exactly how a wizard is going to run out of spells when at least 50% of the choices you would make end an encounter instantly (or at least, make it so easy your allies can finish it for you).

[Smiling Knight]

Monks are the best possible class in 3.5 if you have at least two +3 or better abilities and 2 +2 abilities. But I digress.

BOOOM! *Head explodes*


*Headless body prays this is troll*

[ErrantX]

[sofawall]

The runes detonate when read, dealing 6d6 points of force damage.

Nothing about "out loud" there.

...attempting to dispel or erase the runes and failing to do so triggers the explosion.

Oh look, another way!

No I understand with your houserules and DM Fiat, casters may not be the strongest class. However, with the rules as they are in the book, no modifications, casters tend to do fairly well.

[2xMachina]

Reserve feats would like to have a word with you. Right after you check with the mangled corpse of the noncaster over there, who ran out of HP long before you ran out of spell slots.

Hmm, yeah.

Casters rule high lvls.

You can't do it for a 1 to 20 dungeon run though. Don't think you can survive to get reserve feats. (Else, try a full caster//full caster in Neverending Dungeon)