[3.5 Gestalt ]Trying to make a competent, useful healer at level 1...

[Zovc]

I can't use Entangling Exhalation with my Dragonfire Adept, so I decided I'll look at some other options before 'going with it anyways.'

Our group has no healer, and everyone thinks we need one. We got massacred in one encounter, and it wasn't wear and tear that brought us down, so I'm not so sure... but I'll humor them if I can make a potent character that just so happens to be able to heal.

I'm a level 1 gestalt character, I can take a level adjustment, or even use savage species to turn a big bad race into a racial progression. Where should I start?

[Greenish]

Where should I start?

Most any divine (full) caster has healing spells, in addition to being a full caster. Cleric is probably the best, having spontaneous healing and the ability to remove just about any condition.

Then grab crusader on the other side for non-action healing and a control build to minimize the damage party takes.

[Yorrin]

Yeah, you're looking at probably a Cleric, though I've heard Dragon Shamans can be good in a pinch too. And actually a Crusader isn't a bad choice in some situations, though I seem to remember from your other thread that your DM doesn't like ToB...

[Dr Bwaa]

Ugh. Healers should not exist in 3.5. If you MUST, just buy (and make sure you can use) a wand of CLW, and you should be fine. Cleric is a solid choice. Just don't actually prepare any heal spells, for goodness' sake.

[Boci]

Ugh. Healers should not exist in 3.5. If you MUST, just buy (and make sure you can use) a wand of CLW, and you should be fine. Cleric is a solid choice. Just don't actually prepare any heal spells, for goodness' sake.

Lesser vigour heals more, but even less useful in combat. Dread necromancer is a good choice...if the whole party is necropolitant/has taken the tome tainted soul feat.

[Optimystik]

Warlock is my healer of choice. You can easily UMD (and later craft) any healing items you or your group could possibly want, and later segue into Eldritch Disciple, healing your comrades at range en masse with your Eldritch Blasts, Chains and Cones. All (with the right build) while getting 9th-level spells and Dark invocations.

[Zovc]

Wand of Cure Light Wounds is such a good healer at level 1, costing the entire party's starting wealth.

[Boci]

Wand of Cure Light Wounds is such a good healer at level 1, costing the entire party's starting wealth.

So buy a partially charged one. 20-30 charges should last a long time on a wand of lesser vigor. It costs only 300-450gp and it will heal 220-330 hit points.

[Zovc]

So buy a partially charged one. 20-30 charges should last a long time on a wand of lesser vigor. It costs only 300-450gp and it will heal 220-330 hit points.

Even 330-450gp is too much. Is it really worth me not having equipment to have 11 extra HP for, what, two combats?

[Boci]

Even 330-450gp is too much. Is it really worth me not having equipment to have 11 extra HP for, what, two combats?

I don't get the question. I do not know how much money you start with, but assuming 4 in the group and each one hass 100gp, ypu pool your resources, get a wand with 20 charges and each PC gets 25gp tp spend on equipment. You should have more soon.

[Goldfly]

If you can get Dragon Magazine in, Cloistered Cleric//Paladin might be good.
Take the Serenity feat, and you have
-Good BAB
-Good Fort & Will
-Bardic Knowledge
-Lay on Hands
-Turn Undead
-3 Domains, one of which is Knowledge
-Spontaneous healing
-d10 HP
-Martial Weapon & Heavy Armor Proficiency
-6+Int skill points per level
-Wis to Saves/AC (@ second level)
Focus mostly on Wis, with Con, Str, and Dex/Int coming after, in that order.

[Random NPC]

I would second [Cloistered] Cleric//Crusader. He heals all the time and actually helps the party avoid take any damage.

[PhoenixRivers]

Warblade // Dread Necromancer

Have tomb-tainted soul for yourself. Also have Divine Spirit (Tome of Battle). This lets you expend a turn attempt as a swift action to heal yourself = 3+Cha modifier. How do you get divine spirit? Martial Study for Crusader Strike, Martial stance for Iron Guard's Glare or the healing stance.

Now: Charnel Touch will heal anyone with Tomb-tainted soul. If you're in punishing stance, that's 1d8+1d6 healing.

Any time you hit, you can heal a little to people, and if you use Crusader Strike, it's more.

[Chrono22]

Be a human exalted binder/whatever (something with decent charisma). Take three feats (sacred vow, nimbus of light, stigmata). With your binder level, choose to bind naberius. His fast ability healing comes in handy when combined with stigmata.
You can now heal hundreds of people a day of their injuries and afflictions, at level 1.

[Zovc]

Be a human exalted binder/whatever (something with decent charisma). Take three feats (sacred vow, nimbus of light, stigmata). With your binder level, choose to bind naberius. His fast ability healing comes in handy when combined with stigmata.
You can now heal hundreds of people a day of their injuries and afflictions, at level 1.

Why do I take Sacred Vow?

Also, I can only do that once an hour. :(

[Chrono22]

Sacred Vow is a gateway feat to other stuff. Or maybe it isn't- I don't really remember.
If you level up a bit more, you can gain access to Buer as a binder. She basically gives you unlimited healing ability (you can heal 1 hp per round with a touch).

[Divide by Zero]

If you level up a bit more, you can gain access to Buer as a binder. She basically gives you unlimited healing ability (you can heal 1 hp per round with a touch).

Doesn't the recharging version give more per round, though? I might be remembering the numbers wrong.

[Chrono22]

Doesn't the recharging version give more per round, though? I might be remembering the numbers wrong.

yes, it does.
Overall, it's less powerful tactically, but this build does wonders strategically. Being able to keep your allies and yourself at full power between fights greatly improves a party's staying power.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that Cloistered Cleric//Crusader is probably the strongest choice here. Trade the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, get Crusader Strike and Martial Spirit, and pick up the Sun and Healing domains with the PH2 ACF to spontaneously cast your Healing domain spells. If you can take flaws go Human and start out with Divine Spirit, Augment Healing, Stone Power, and Extra Turning. Plan on going Crusader 20// Cloistered Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant 5/ Contemplative 9.


A Dread Necromancer's negative energy touch always heals only 1 point +1 per four class levels when used on an undead or someone with Tomb-Tainted Soul, and it is not treated as an attack when used this way so damage-boosting effects will not increase the healing it does.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'll agree that Cloistered Cleric//Crusader is probably the strongest choice here. Trade the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion, get Crusader Strike and Martial Spirit, and pick up the Sun and Healing domains with the PH2 ACF to spontaneously cast your Healing domain spells. If you can take flaws go Human and start out with Divine Spirit, Augment Healing, Stone Power, and Extra Turning. Plan on going Crusader 20// Cloistered Cleric 6/ Radiant Servant 5/ Contemplative 9.


A Dread Necromancer's negative energy touch always heals only 1 point +1 per four class levels when used on an undead or someone with Tomb-Tainted Soul, and it is not treated as an attack when used this way so damage-boosting effects will not increase the healing it does.

Cite source for Tomb-Tainted. Undead, yes. However, the mechanical text isn't "counts as undead for healing". It's "negative energy heals".

When using a negative energy touch attack on yourself, you automatically hit. However, it is still a touch attack, which makes it an attack by definition.

All electric cars are cars.
All beach balls are balls.
All touch attacks are attacks.

Cite source for both the reduction in healing on tomb-tainted, and the RAW backup for "touch attacks are not considered attacks".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Cite source for Tomb-Tainted. Undead, yes. However, the mechanical text isn't "counts as undead for healing". It's "negative energy heals".

When using a negative energy touch attack on yourself, you automatically hit. However, it is still a touch attack, which makes it an attack by definition.

All electric cars are cars.
All beach balls are balls.
All touch attacks are attacks.

Cite source for both the reduction in healing on tomb-tainted, and the RAW backup for "touch attacks are not considered attacks".

Benefit: You are healed by negative energy and harmed by
positive energy as if you were an undead creature.

At will, but no more than once per
round, she can make a melee touch attack
against a living foe that deals 1d8 points
of damage, +1 per four class levels. This
touch heals undead creatures, restoring
1 hit point per touch, +1 per four
class levels.

It is considered an attack only against living foes. Creatures with Tomb-Tainted Soul are regarded as undead for negative energy effects, including this one. It is not an attack when used to heal, you only heal 1 point +1 per four class levels, and effects which increase damage for attacks has no effect on how much it can heal because it is not considered an attack.

[PhoenixRivers]

It is considered an attack only against living foes. Creatures with Tomb-Tainted Soul are regarded as undead for negative energy effects, including this one. It is not an attack when used to heal, you only heal 1 point +1 per four class levels, and effects which increase damage for attacks has no effect on how much it can heal because it is not considered an attack.

Nothing states that it's not an attack. You still have to make a touch attack if you attempt to use it on an undead in combat.

"This touch heals undead..." What touch? Why, the only referenced touch is the touch attack previously mentioned.

Further, even if your interpretation was correct on "it is not an attack for undead"... Tomb-tainted souls are NOT undead. For the purpose of whether the negative energy heals or hurts them, they are counted as undead.

However, they are not for any other purpose. They don't automatically get darkvision. They aren't immune to damage to their physical ability scores.

And any ability which counts as an attack against a living creature counts as an attack against them. The ONLY thing that TTS allows them to do is treat the results of that attack (the negative energy) as an undead would. For all other purposes... ALL other purposes... He is not undead.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Nothing states that it's not an attack. You still have to make a touch attack if you attempt to use it on an undead in combat.

"This touch heals undead..." What touch? Why, the only referenced touch is the touch attack previously mentioned.

The ability is called Charnel Touch, therefore, 'this touch' = 'this special ability' and your attempt to misinterpret the wording to support your argument is laid bare.

Further, even if your interpretation was correct on "it is not an attack for undead"... Tomb-tainted souls are NOT undead. For the purpose of whether the negative energy heals or hurts them, they are counted as undead.

However, they are not for any other purpose. They don't automatically get darkvision. They aren't immune to damage to their physical ability scores.

And any ability which counts as an attack against a living creature counts as an attack against them. The ONLY thing that TTS allows them to do is treat the results of that attack (the negative energy) as an undead would. For all other purposes... ALL other purposes... He is not undead.

Charnel Touch is modal, it functions differently depending on whether the target is living or undead, and it is a negative energy effect. Tomb-Tainted Soul causes negative energy effects to treat the character as though they were undead. Therefore, Charnel Touch when used on a character with Tomb-Tainted Soul functions as though it were used on an undead creature, and it is used for healing rather than as an offensive action. This is exactly how it would be ruled in actual play, regardless of what you come up with for a Charnel Touch Healing TO build. Bullying a DM until you get your way is not a valid ruling, and arguing about it over the internet has no bearing on actual play.

[PhoenixRivers]

Charnel Touch is modal, it functions differently depending on whether the target is living or undead, and it is a negative energy effect. Tomb-Tainted Soul causes negative energy effects to treat the character as though they were undead. Therefore, Charnel Touch when used on a character with Tomb-Tainted Soul functions as though it were used on an undead creature, and it is used for healing rather than as an offensive action. This is exactly how it would be ruled in actual play, regardless of what you come up with for a Charnel Touch Healing TO build. Bullying a DM until you get your way is not a valid ruling, and arguing about it over the internet has no bearing on actual play.

It's not "bullying a DM". It's RAW.

"You are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy as if you were an undead creature."

Does this say it has any bearing on targeting restrictions? No.

"...she can make a melee touch attack against a living foe..."

Is the target living? Yes. Then it's a melee touch attack.

"...that deals 1d8 points of damage, +1 per four class levels. This touch heals undead creatures, restoring 1 hit point per touch, +1 per four class levels..."

Technically, this is Modal. You're right.

If a creature is living, it deals 1d8 + 1/4 CL negative energy damage.

If a creature is undead, it heals 1+1/4 CL.

Neither of the decision triggers are actually negative energy damage.

Look at it this way.

I have a creature with 20 AC. He has +3 AC when being attacked by a trap.

I have a trap. It attacks anything with less than 22 AC.

When the trap has to decide whether or not it attacks, does the creature bypass the trap? No. Because when the trap isn't attacking, the effect doesn't apply.

Same here. The decision that is made determines whether the effect deals negative energy damage, or heals. That means the decision must be made BEFORE the negative energy effect takes effect. That means that for the decision process, the creature is not undead.

You can argue that pointing out the RAW is "bullying".

But if you have to successfully touch something to affect it? The game has a term for that. It's called a melee touch attack. You use you base attack bonus + str modifier, and make an attack roll. Arguing that it's not an attack is like arguing that a beach ball isn't a ball.

It's one thing if you say "that's not balanced, and wouldn't fly in my game".

It's quite another to misrepresent your house rules as RAW, and claim that anyone who disagrees is only trying to bully a DM.

In other words? Keep your house rules out of my game. They're great for yours, but they are total crap in mine.

[Iferus]

Go crazy. Play a healer//rogue and tumble your way to deliver healing touch spells. Use the celestial companion for flanking benefits or something suboptimal and fun :)

[The Cat Goddess]

If you're not concerned with higher levels, a Favored Soul has more spells per day than a Cleric. Sure, you can't do all the Shenanigans that a Cleric can... but it's fine for limited-spell-access casting. Basically a "set it and forget it" class.

[Escheton]

Monster manual 3, page 98. Lumi

Floating head'ed positive energy plane dwellers.
Immune to so many awesome things. Such as blindness, death effects, suffocation. Great stats, free feat. Outsider.
2 racial hitdie, 2lvl mod. Spread that over 4 lvls and denerf it as you progress.

other side just cleric of lathander or something

I was looking for a similar creature with an aura of positive energy, that automatically heals all around him. Couldnt find it in the mm's so it might be in races of destiny or something.

[demidracolich]

Go crazy. Play a healer//rogue and tumble your way to deliver healing touch spells. Use the celestial companion for flanking benefits or something suboptimal and fun :)

Excuse me? Did you just suggest healer? You're right on the fact that he would have to go crazy to pick healer as a class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

*stuff*

Charnel Touch is negative energy, it heals you if you have Tomb-Tainted Soul, and it does so as though you were an undead creature. That means that if it heals you, you are treated as though you were undead for that instance of the ability's use. You do not pick which mode to use, then check to see if it would be possible to use it as such. You declare the ability's use, and it is resolved in whichever mode is appropriate. In this case, it will not use its attack mode when used on a character with tomb-tainted soul, since its effect would be resolved as though they were an undead creature. Nothing in the ability implies that you get to choose how its effect is resolved, therefore it uses whichever mode is mechanically appropriate based on its target.