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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    My wife might join us on our next 4E run, when we return to Icestation Zhentarim in a few months time. She'd like to play a simple class, particularly one that other people could play for short periods if necessary (interruptions from the baby). She also likes the sound of being the second Striker.

    For context, the existing party is:
    Genasi Stormsoul Assault Swordmage
    Genasi Windsoul Staff Wizard
    Human Laser Cleric
    Human Two-weapon Ranger

    The obvious choices, and the ones she was most keen on are Rogue or Ranger. We are also rather short of ranged power; the Wizard obviously does his thing but otherwise it's my Ranger using his secondary attack choice. Basically Twin Strike at range.

    Rogue gives her some different options to my character, but I think is slightly harder than playing a Ranger. Not sure they're as good at a distance either. Archery Ranger is really simple, but might get boring and feel a bit same-y.

    I've had a stab at two 8th level characters, though I'm much more sure of the Ranger than the Rogue. Endurance is very important in this game, which is why both character have something that boosts it. Getting caught out in the cold for too long drains Healing Surges if you fail Endurance checks.

    Rogue (who's a townsfolk):

    level 8
    Human, Rogue
    Build: Aerialist Rogue
    Rogue Tactics: Artful Dodger
    Rogue: Rogue Weapon Talent
    Background: Narfell (Narfell Benefit)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 14, Con 13, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 16.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 14, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14.


    AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 23 Will: 20
    HP: 60 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 15

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Insight +10, Stealth +15, Thievery +13, Perception +10, Athletics +13, Acrobatics +13, Bluff +12

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +4, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +8, Heal +5, History +4, Intimidate +7, Nature +5, Religion +4, Streetwise +7

    FEATS
    Human: Action Surge
    Level 1: Two-Fisted Shooter
    Level 2: Far Shot
    Level 4: Backstabber
    Level 6: Distant Advantage
    Level 8: Melee Training (Dexterity)

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Sly Flourish
    Rogue at-will 1: Deft Strike
    Rogue at-will 1: Piercing Strike
    Rogue encounter 1: Positioning Strike
    Rogue daily 1: Trick Strike
    Rogue utility 2: Fleeting Ghost
    Rogue encounter 3: Bait and Switch
    Rogue daily 5: Walking Wounded
    Rogue utility 6: Chameleon
    Rogue encounter 7: Snap Shot

    ITEMS
    Sylvan Leather Armor +2, Duelist's Dagger +2, Distance Hand Crossbow +2, Amulet of Protection +2*

    *Simulating bonuses attached to the character
    Ranger (who's a Rhegedmen barbarian):

    level 8
    Human, Ranger
    Build: Archer Ranger
    Fighting Style: Archer Fighting Style
    Ranger: Prime Shot
    Background: Child of the Wildlands (+2 to Endurance)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 14, Dex 20, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


    AC: 24 Fort: 20 Reflex: 23 Will: 20
    HP: 61 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 15

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Stealth +13, Nature +12, Endurance +12, Perception +12, Acrobatics +13, Athletics +8

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +7, History +4, Insight +7, Intimidate +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +8

    FEATS
    Human: Action Surge
    Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Bow)
    Level 2: Quick Draw
    Level 4: Weapon Focus (Bow)
    Level 6: Melee Training (Dexterity)
    Level 8: Hunter's Aim

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
    Ranger at-will 1: Nimble Strike
    Ranger at-will 1: Hunter's Teamwork
    Ranger encounter 1: Two-Fanged Strike
    Ranger daily 1: Hunter's Bear Trap
    Ranger utility 2: Yield Ground
    Ranger encounter 3: Disruptive Strike
    Ranger daily 5: Spitting-Cobra Stance
    Ranger utility 6: Weave Through the Fray
    Ranger encounter 7: Biting Volley

    ITEMS
    Life Vine Hide Armor +2, Magic Battleaxe +2*, Magic Handaxe +2*, Homing Longbow +2, Amulet of Protection +2*, Boots of Striding (heroic tier)

    *Simulating bonuses attached to the character
    I'm leaning more towards suggesting the Archery Ranger, are there any reasons the Rogue would be a better choice? Are there any others we've not considered in the simplicity stakes (that would fit with the existing party)?
    Wushu Open Reloaded
    Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
    Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
    In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    If you want a) ranged combat b) striker and c) to keep it simple, the obvious answer ist Archery Ranger. If however you already have a Ranger in the party, it would be very boring indeed (even more boring then just playing a Ranger).

    Other suggestions: Warlock and Sorcerer. Both ranged strikers, both a bit more complicated then Rogue and Ranger, but not extremely so - and especially the Warlock makes a fantastic second striker due to its secondary controller abilities.

    My idea: make a dragon sorcerer for her. Nice, flavorfull, not all to complicated, and exactly filling the gap in your party.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    Archer Ranger is the easier class to play, possibly the easiest in the game. Not being at the table sometimes won't really be a problem. The downside is that they can get boring. Your party already has a ranger as well, you may get overlap of skills and flavour while another class would feel more unique.

    The rogue build isn't, in my opinion, very good. For starters, an Artful Dodger has little use for Str, and none at all if you take melee training. Take those points and put them into Dex, because hitting things is fun. I would say pick one of melee or ranged to focus on, but also warn that ranged rogues can be more complex. They rely more on stealth to get CA, where a melee rogue can just flank. Again though, that's something that can give a character a point of difference and make it interesting.

    Here's a ranged-only rogue I put together for level 8. The high-ish Con is to qualify for the Steady Shooter feat in paragon. Note that I still used Human, but the Drow Cloud of Darkness power makes them both better and easier to play for ranged rogues if you're not set on race.

    Spoiler
    Show

    level 8
    Human, Rogue
    Build: Shadowy Rogue
    Rogue Tactics: Cunning Sneak
    Rogue: Sharpshooter Talent
    Sharpshooter Talent: Sharpshooter Talent (Crossbow)
    Background: Narfell (Narfell Benefit)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 8, Con 14, Dex 20, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 10.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 8, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 10.


    AC: 23 Fort: 19 Reflex: 24 Will: 18
    HP: 61 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 15

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Insight +10, Stealth +16, Thievery +14, Perception +10, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +14, Acrobatics +14

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +7, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Heal +5, History +7, Intimidate +4, Nature +5, Religion +7, Streetwise +4, Athletics +5

    FEATS
    Human: Speed Loader
    Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Superior crossbow)
    Level 2: Backstabber
    Level 4: Distant Advantage
    Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Crossbow)
    Level 8: Action Surge

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Gloaming Cut
    Rogue at-will 1: Preparatory Shot
    Rogue at-will 1: Deft Strike
    Rogue encounter 1: Unbalancing Shot
    Rogue daily 1: Blinding Barrage
    Rogue utility 2: Far Sight
    Rogue encounter 3: Flattening Shot
    Rogue daily 5: Staggering Assault
    Rogue utility 6: Chameleon
    Rogue encounter 7: Killer's Ambush

    ITEMS
    Sylvan Leather Armor +2, Targeting Superior crossbow +2, Amulet of Protection +2


    Another possible option would be Sorcerer. Use one of the Cha/Dex builds and you'd still be able to cover the Dex based skills if your party needs that.
    Last edited by Excession; 2010-05-22 at 06:51 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by AB View Post
    If you want a) ranged combat b) striker and c) to keep it simple, the obvious answer ist Archery Ranger. If however you already have a Ranger in the party, it would be very boring indeed (even more boring then just playing a Ranger).

    Other suggestions: Warlock and Sorcerer. Both ranged strikers, both a bit more complicated then Rogue and Ranger, but not extremely so - and especially the Warlock makes a fantastic second striker due to its secondary controller abilities.

    My idea: make a dragon sorcerer for her. Nice, flavorfull, not all to complicated, and exactly filling the gap in your party.
    An additional point of clarification which affects the "boring" and "complicated" dimensions: my wife has never played any edition of D&D before. So what might seem boring to someone who's been playing a decade and is on their fourth 4e campaign is quite different to someone new to it. Same goes on complexity, I don't think anything more complex than the Rogue is going to be suitable. Controller abilities are a step change in the complexity stakes.

    Also consider the whole business of possibly needing to be away from the table for half an hour or so during the sessions.

    As the guy playing the existing Ranger in the group, there's nothing boring about being a pure Striker and stalking around smashing things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    Archer Ranger is the easier class to play, possibly the easiest in the game. Not being at the table sometimes won't really be a problem. The downside is that they can get boring. Your party already has a ranger as well, you may get overlap of skills and flavour while another class would feel more unique.
    As before, I think the boring issues aren't as much of a problem as they might be with a seasoned player. The skills overlap could be useful given the heavy wilderness-orientation of the game.

    Just having a ranged specialist who could keep an eye on the Wizard would be a good thing. Not to mention having a second Perception-and-Stealth specialist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    The rogue build isn't, in my opinion, very good. For starters, an Artful Dodger has little use for Str, and none at all if you take melee training. Take those points and put them into Dex, because hitting things is fun. I would say pick one of melee or ranged to focus on, but also warn that ranged rogues can be more complex. They rely more on stealth to get CA, where a melee rogue can just flank. Again though, that's something that can give a character a point of difference and make it interesting.

    Here's a ranged-only rogue I put together for level 8. The high-ish Con is to qualify for the Steady Shooter feat in paragon. Note that I still used Human, but the Drow Cloud of Darkness power makes them both better and easier to play for ranged rogues if you're not set on race.

    Spoiler
    Show

    level 8
    Human, Rogue
    Build: Shadowy Rogue
    Rogue Tactics: Cunning Sneak
    Rogue: Sharpshooter Talent
    Sharpshooter Talent: Sharpshooter Talent (Crossbow)
    Background: Narfell (Narfell Benefit)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 8, Con 14, Dex 20, Int 16, Wis 13, Cha 10.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 8, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 10.


    AC: 23 Fort: 19 Reflex: 24 Will: 18
    HP: 61 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 15

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Insight +10, Stealth +16, Thievery +14, Perception +10, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +14, Acrobatics +14

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +7, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Heal +5, History +7, Intimidate +4, Nature +5, Religion +7, Streetwise +4, Athletics +5

    FEATS
    Human: Speed Loader
    Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Superior crossbow)
    Level 2: Backstabber
    Level 4: Distant Advantage
    Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Crossbow)
    Level 8: Action Surge

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Gloaming Cut
    Rogue at-will 1: Preparatory Shot
    Rogue at-will 1: Deft Strike
    Rogue encounter 1: Unbalancing Shot
    Rogue daily 1: Blinding Barrage
    Rogue utility 2: Far Sight
    Rogue encounter 3: Flattening Shot
    Rogue daily 5: Staggering Assault
    Rogue utility 6: Chameleon
    Rogue encounter 7: Killer's Ambush

    ITEMS
    Sylvan Leather Armor +2, Targeting Superior crossbow +2, Amulet of Protection +2
    Yeah, my Rogue wasn't brilliant. Though I think bumping Con would me more useful than trying to squeeze just one more point out of Dex.

    If ranged Rogues are more complex, then that's again pointing back to the Archery Ranger.

    One minor note, Dungeoneering is pretty much worthless in this game, we don't 'crawl. Almost everything has been outdoors so far, aside from one jaunt in some (non-dungeon) caves.

    Which is also why an overlap on Ranger abilities is actually quite useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    Another possible option would be Sorcerer. Use one of the Cha/Dex builds and you'd still be able to cover the Dex based skills if your party needs that.
    As above, I think controller-y stuff is too much for a first game when you're not necessarily going to be able to focus much on complexities.
    Wushu Open Reloaded
    Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
    Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
    In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Banned
     
    true_shinken's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    I say Sorcerer as well.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by true_shinken View Post
    I say Sorcerer as well.
    Too complicated, and not well-suited to the wilderness environment.

    How about a Ranger/Seeker hybrid:

    level 8
    Human, Ranger|Seeker
    Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
    Seeker's Bond (Hybrid): Bloodbond (Hybrid)
    Hybrid Seeker: Hybrid Seeker Reflex
    Hybrid Talent: Ranger Fighting Style
    Ranger Fighting Style: Hunter Fighting Style (Hybrid)
    Background: Child of the Wildlands (+2 to Endurance)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 14, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


    AC: 22 Fort: 20 Reflex: 22 Will: 21
    HP: 61 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 15

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Stealth +15, Acrobatics +13, Perception +13, Endurance +13, Nature +13, Athletics +11

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, History +4, Insight +8, Intimidate +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +8

    FEATS
    Human: Distant Advantage
    Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Bow)
    Level 2: Hunter's Aim
    Level 4: Skill Training (Athletics)
    Level 6: Weapon Focus (Bow)
    Level 8: Hybrid Talent

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
    Hybrid at-will 1: Elemental Spirits
    Hybrid at-will 1: Biting Swarm
    Hybrid encounter 1: Possessing Spirits
    Hybrid daily 1: Rime Strike
    Hybrid utility 2: Yield Ground
    Hybrid encounter 3: Disruptive Strike
    Hybrid daily 5: Spitting-Cobra Stance
    Hybrid utility 6: Earthbond Gift
    Hybrid encounter 7: Feyjump Shot

    ITEMS
    Sylvan Leather Armor +2, Amulet of Protection +2*, Boots of Striding (heroic tier), Supremely Vicious Longbow +2

    *Simulating bonuses attached to the character
    Then there's quite a bit of difference to the other Ranger:

    Maxim "Blend" Fryar, level 8
    Human, Ranger
    Build: Two-Blade Ranger
    Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
    Ranger: Prime Shot
    Background: Occupation - Criminal (+2 to Stealth)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 18, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 14, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10.


    AC: 22 Fort: 22 Reflex: 22 Will: 19
    HP: 66 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 16

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Stealth +14, Nature +11, Endurance +11, Perception +13, Acrobatics +12, Athletics +13

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +7

    FEATS
    Human: Action Surge
    Level 1: Weapon Focus (Axe)
    Level 2: Quick Draw
    Level 4: Two-Weapon Fighting
    Level 6: Two-Weapon Defense
    Level 8: Alertness

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
    Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run
    Ranger at-will 1: Nimble Strike
    Ranger encounter 1: Fox's Cunning
    Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
    Ranger utility 2: Yield Ground
    Ranger encounter 3: Cut and Run
    Ranger daily 5: Frenzied Skirmish
    Ranger utility 6: Weave Through the Fray
    Ranger encounter 7: Sweeping Whirlwind

    ITEMS
    Frost Battleaxe +2, Magic Battleaxe +2*, Magic Leather Armor +2*, Amulet of Protection +2*, Boots of Striding (heroic tier), Magic Longbow +2*
    Last edited by Kiero; 2010-05-22 at 09:21 AM.
    Wushu Open Reloaded
    Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
    Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
    In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    demidracolich's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    Well,all I have to say is that for archery hunter fighting style is better in every way from archer fighting style.
    Really really really awesome avatar thanks to neoseph7

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Excession's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    Yeah, my Rogue wasn't brilliant. Though I think bumping Con would me more useful than trying to squeeze just one more point out of Dex.
    And I would disagree. +2 Dex will get you +1 to hit, +1 to damage, +1 AC, +1 Ref, +1 initiative, and +1 to all your Dex skills. More Con will get you a few hp, a healing surge, and +1 Fort. A ranged rogue is already one of the hardest class in the game for enemies to hit, because half the time they're hidden anyway. They won't need a ton of hp, and fort isn't often targeted by ranged attacks. You need 15 Con by paragon to get Steady Shooter, nothing more.

    Most of this argument applies to your other builds too. In my experience it's better for each character to specialise, but spread those specialisations around the party so you're better at everything. I would start almost every class with an 18, and some like the ranged rogue can handle a 20 without giving up much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    One minor note, Dungeoneering is pretty much worthless in this game, we don't 'crawl. Almost everything has been outdoors so far, aside from one jaunt in some (non-dungeon) caves.
    Dungeoneering is also used for natural caves, and is important for a lot of monster knowledge checks. It does depend on the game though, and on whether your DM allows everyone trained to roll a check or follows the DMG guideline that, iirc, suggests having only the highest trained character roll. For me "Oh, Dungeoneering, that's me" is more interesting than "Nature, I can do that too. Again."

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiero View Post
    As above, I think controller-y stuff is too much for a first game when you're not necessarily going to be able to focus much on complexities.
    Sorcerers are not controllers. Unlike warlocks, they can be built as pure strikers. Yes they have area attacks, but those attacks are about doing lots of damage, not applying complex status effects.

    Also, don't create a hybrid, especially a half-controller hybrid, for a new player. If controller is going to be too complex, I don't think half of one is going to be better.
    Last edited by Excession; 2010-05-22 at 04:44 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Thajocoth's Avatar

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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    Why not both? You can actually make a hybrid char that deals more damage with increased flexibility without getting complicated or losing out on anything. Here's what I'd do:

    Spoiler
    Show
    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    level 8
    Human, Ranger|Rogue
    Hybrid Ranger: Hybrid Ranger Fortitude
    Hybrid Talent: Ranger Fighting Style
    Ranger Fighting Style: Hunter Fighting Style (Hybrid)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 10, Con 11, Dex 22, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.


    AC: 23 Fort: 18 Reflex: 24 Will: 20
    HP: 58 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 15

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Heal +12, Acrobatics +15, Stealth +15, Thievery +15, Dungeoneering +12, Nature +12, Perception +12

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Arcana +3, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Endurance +4, History +3, Insight +7, Intimidate +4, Religion +3, Streetwise +4, Athletics +4

    FEATS
    Human: Hybrid Talent
    Level 1: Backstabber
    Level 2: Lethal Hunter
    Level 4: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
    Level 6: Weapon Expertise (Light Blade)
    Level 8: Weapon Master

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Twin Strike
    Hybrid at-will 1: Duelist's Flurry
    Hybrid at-will 1: Nimble Strike
    Hybrid encounter 1: Fox's Cunning
    Hybrid daily 1: Duelist's Prowess
    Hybrid utility 2: Tumble
    Hybrid encounter 3: Nasty Backswing
    Hybrid daily 5: Close-Combat Shot
    Hybrid utility 6: Death Threat
    Hybrid encounter 7: Disruptive Strike

    ITEMS
    Shadowdance Leather Armor +1, Prime Shot Longbow +2, Master's Blade Short sword +2, Evil Eye Fetish +2, Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Bracers of Brachiation (heroic tier), Adventurer's Kit, Climber's Kit, Disguise Kit, Fine Clothing, Footpads, Hunter's Kit, Thieves' Tools
    ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


    By concentrating heavily on non-Standard Action powers, you can fairly reliably deal both Sneak Attack & Quarry most rounds. Hunting Fighting Style lets you pretty much ignore weapon switching, using both your shortsword and longbow as if they're always both equipped. Shadowdance armor means no AOs for ranged attacks in melee, so again that's one less thing to worry about.
    Last edited by Thajocoth; 2010-05-22 at 06:08 PM.
    Avatar by me. It's Incendius Darkscale, a Good Dragonborn Dragon Sorcerer, Demonskin Adept, Prince of Hell, worshiper of the Platinum Dragon (Bahamut), specializing in Fire and Lightning, wielding a staff in each hand.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4E] Rogue or Ranger?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    And I would disagree. +2 Dex will get you +1 to hit, +1 to damage, +1 AC, +1 Ref, +1 initiative, and +1 to all your Dex skills. More Con will get you a few hp, a healing surge, and +1 Fort. A ranged rogue is already one of the hardest class in the game for enemies to hit, because half the time they're hidden anyway. They won't need a ton of hp, and fort isn't often targeted by ranged attacks. You need 15 Con by paragon to get Steady Shooter, nothing more.
    Fair enough.

    There is unlikely to be any levelling in this game, so paragon considerations aren't really relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    Most of this argument applies to your other builds too. In my experience it's better for each character to specialise, but spread those specialisations around the party so you're better at everything. I would start almost every class with an 18, and some like the ranged rogue can handle a 20 without giving up much.
    Sorry, I don't agree on that at all. In my experience of playing the above character, there's been little suffering as a result of not having a starting 18, and quite a bit of benefit from not being a one-trick pony.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    Dungeoneering is also used for natural caves, and is important for a lot of monster knowledge checks. It does depend on the game though, and on whether your DM allows everyone trained to roll a check or follows the DMG guideline that, iirc, suggests having only the highest trained character roll. For me "Oh, Dungeoneering, that's me" is more interesting than "Nature, I can do that too. Again."
    Everyone rolls everything, even if untrained in our group (thoug the untrained don't tend to get as much, even if they roll well). Not even in the caves was there any call for Dungeoneering checks, and we've never had cause for monster knowledge checks. I don't think our GM even does them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    Sorcerers are not controllers. Unlike warlocks, they can be built as pure strikers. Yes they have area attacks, but those attacks are about doing lots of damage, not applying complex status effects.
    Even so, thematically they're not really that appealing to the player, and their skills aren't very useful in the environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excession View Post
    Also, don't create a hybrid, especially a half-controller hybrid, for a new player. If controller is going to be too complex, I don't think half of one is going to be better.
    Powers in question are simple controller-y, rather than complex, that happen to also work very well with the main attack option. And give a little differentiation from the other Ranger in the group.
    Wushu Open Reloaded
    Actual Play: The Shadow of the Sun (Acrozatarim's WFRP campaign) as Pawel Hals and Mass: the Effecting - Transcendence as Russell Ortiz.
    Now running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia 300BC.
    In Sanity We Trust Productions - our podcasting site where you can hear our dulcet tones, updated almost every week.

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