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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    I think this is just my brain deciding to be pedantic, but is a square/creature adjacent to itself? What made me think about this is the Runepriest's runes:
    Rune of Destruction: Allies get +1 to attack enemies adjacent to you. (Includes the Runepriest since he's an ally of himself)
    Rune of Protection: Adjacent allies get resist 2 to all damage. (Does NOT include the Runepriest if he is not adjacent to himself)

    It seems odd that one of the two abilities includes the user and the other one doesn't. For another "hiccup" there's the Seeker's Emelental Spirits power:

    Hit: 1[W] + Wis damage of the chosen type. Until end of next turn any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the target takes damage of the chosen type equal to Dex.

    This creature is wreathed in elemental spirits that damage people around him, but is immune to the extra damage himself? If it is a creature larger than a single square, does it take damage (since it is now occupying a square adjacent to a square occupied by itself)?
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Rune of Destruction gives a bonus against enemies that are adjacent to you. An ally on the other side of the enemy gets the bonus too.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2010-05-22 at 02:50 PM.
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Rune of Destruction gives a bonus against enemies that are adjacent to you. An ally on the other side of the enemy gets the bonus too.
    The question as I read it was regarding Rune of Protection, not Destruction.

    Not being a 4e player, though, I can't offer explanation.
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Actually, unless a power says "you and all allies" or something similar, it does not apply to you. Your character does count as an ally of him or herself. In answer to your original question, no I do not believe that a creature is considered adjacent to itself.

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by The New Bruceski View Post
    Rune of Destruction: Allies get +1 to attack enemies adjacent to you. (Includes the Runepriest since he's an ally of himself)

    Rune of Protection: Adjacent allies get resist 2 to all damage. (Does NOT include the Runepriest if he is not adjacent to himself)
    I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the term "allies" in 4th ed DOES NOT include yourself, unless it specifies otherwise.
    Last edited by Moriato; 2010-05-22 at 03:11 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Moriato View Post
    I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the term "allies" in 4th ed DOES NOT include yourself, unless it specifies otherwise.
    Correct.

    "Creature" includes yourself. "Ally" does not--that's why you see powers that target "You or one ally".
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by The New Bruceski View Post
    Hit: 1[W] + Wis damage of the chosen type. Until end of next turn any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the target takes damage of the chosen type equal to Dex.

    This creature is wreathed in elemental spirits that damage people around him, but is immune to the extra damage himself?
    That's not a glitch, that's how the power is designed. He's not immune to those elemental spirits--he gets to enjoy 1[W]+Wis worth of them.

    And no, large creatures are not adjacent to themselves. That would be silly.
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by The New Bruceski View Post
    I think this is just my brain deciding to be pedantic, but is a square/creature adjacent to itself? What made me think about this is the Runepriest's runes:
    Rune of Destruction: Allies get +1 to attack enemies adjacent to you. (Includes the Runepriest since he's an ally of himself)
    Rune of Protection: Adjacent allies get resist 2 to all damage. (Does NOT include the Runepriest if he is not adjacent to himself)

    It seems odd that one of the two abilities includes the user and the other one doesn't. For another "hiccup" there's the Seeker's Emelental Spirits power:

    Hit: 1[W] + Wis damage of the chosen type. Until end of next turn any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the target takes damage of the chosen type equal to Dex.

    This creature is wreathed in elemental spirits that damage people around him, but is immune to the extra damage himself? If it is a creature larger than a single square, does it take damage (since it is now occupying a square adjacent to a square occupied by itself)?
    You have two problems here: how Allies work, and what adjacent means.
    Allies are described below. Adjacent isn't described by RAW, I believe, so it falls to the normal dictionary meaning:
    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/adjacent
    Adjective
    adjacent (not comparable)
    Lying next to, close, or contiguous; neighboring; bordering on.
    Because the conference room is filled, we will have our meeting in the adjacent room.
    Just before, after, or facing.
    The picture is on the adjacent page.
    All of these definitions ensure that you cannot be adjacent to yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danger Jim View Post
    Actually, unless a power says "you and all allies" or something similar, it does not apply to you. Your character does count as an ally of him or herself. In answer to your original question, no I do not believe that a creature is considered adjacent to itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moriato View Post
    I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the term "allies" in 4th ed DOES NOT include yourself, unless it specifies otherwise.
    Both of these people are correct. By RAW:
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB p57
    Otherwise, "ally" or "allies" does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. "Enemy" or "enemies" means a creature or creatures that aren't your allies (whether these creatures are hostile toward you or not)
    So by RAW, you are your own enemy, not your own ally

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Moriato View Post
    I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the term "allies" in 4th ed DOES NOT include yourself, unless it specifies otherwise.
    Right you are, it seems that the initial glossary I checked online was a 3.5 one, and for some reason the 4e PHB does not list "ally" in the index (it's on page 57).

    Nothing to see here folks.
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin View Post
    So by RAW, you are your own enemy, not your own ally
    Not really, since if you use powers that target "enemies in the burst", you don't get hit.

    So, you're neither your ally, nor your enemy. You're your Switzerland.
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by BobTheDog View Post
    Not really, since if you use powers that target "enemies in the burst", you don't get hit.

    So, you're neither your ally, nor your enemy. You're your Switzerland.
    Actually by RAW, you do, if you are in that burst.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin View Post
    All of these definitions ensure that you cannot be adjacent to yourself.
    You can, however, be beside yourself provided you're angry enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin View Post
    Actually by RAW, you do, if you are in that burst.
    No, you're not your own enemy. You're Switzerland.
    Last edited by Mando Knight; 2010-05-22 at 07:49 PM.

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by BobTheDog View Post
    Not really, since if you use powers that target "enemies in the burst", you don't get hit.

    So, you're neither your ally, nor your enemy. You're your Switzerland.
    Yeah, that's technically a house rule due to the "an enemy is everyone who isn't your ally" wording, although it's one that I think practically everyone uses.
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin View Post
    So by RAW, you are your own enemy, not your own ally
    The other thing that this would really screw up is rangers and warlocks - they have to quarry/curse the nearest enemy. So by this interpretation, they can never curse/quarry anyone but themselves. (Though this does make hellocks invincible since they gain temp HP whenever their cursed enemy drops.)
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Yeah, that's technically a house rule due to the "an enemy is everyone who isn't your ally" wording
    Can you get me a page quote on that? The walls and floor are neither your enemy nor your ally, and neither are random rodents and insects that just happen to be there.

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Are you claiming that I can't zap insects and rodents with spells that target enemies?
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Mando Knight View Post
    Can you get me a page quote on that? The walls and floor are neither your enemy nor your ally, and neither are random rodents and insects that just happen to be there.
    PHB Page 57, As I posted above

    Otherwise, "ally" or "allies" does not include you, and both terms assume willing targets. "Enemy" or "enemies" means a creature or creatures that aren't your allies (whether these creatures are hostile toward you or not)
    So enemy means a creature that is not your ally. And you are not your ally. Therefore, you are your own enemy.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    ElfRangerGuy

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Additionally, the walls and floor cannot be either ally or enemy unless they are also creatures (search for "Stupidest D&D Monsters" for examples thereof).
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Are you claiming that I can't zap insects and rodents with spells that target enemies?
    That is overridden by the bag of rats rule. If you aren't facing a credible threat, as per your DM agreement, you can't trigger powers.
    e.g. You can't carry a bag of rats around and then attack them to freely gain temporary hit points or other benefits.

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    That is overridden by the bag of rats rule. If you aren't facing a credible threat, as per your DM agreement, you can't trigger powers.
    e.g. You can't carry a bag of rats around and then attack them to freely gain temporary hit points or other benefits.
    Why can't I zap bugs with Magic Missile?
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Because the power of the mind can be defeated by peace.

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Why can't I zap bugs with Magic Missile?
    You can, but you can't trigger any meaningful benefit out of it for combat unless your DM lets you.

    Say I took the feat, Immolate the masses. Then I brought my ant farm with me to "work". The feat says, every time you drop a group down to 0, you gain temporary hit points equal to how many you kill. Now every time you go into battle, you thunderwave your ant farm, killing thousands, and then use your thousands of hit points to beat up your opponents with your bare fists.

    That's a little extreme, but there are less absurd problems that use the same concept.
    Last edited by HMS Invincible; 2010-05-22 at 11:50 PM.

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Because the power of the mind can be defeated by peace.
    I see what you did there.
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by HMS Invincible View Post
    You can, but you can't trigger any meaningful benefit out of it for combat unless your DM lets you.

    Say I took the feat, Immolate the masses. Then I brought my ant farm with me to "work". The feat says, every time you drop a group down to 0, you gain temporary hit points equal to how many you kill. Now every time you go into battle, you thunderwave your ant farm, killing thousands, and then use your thousands of hit points to beat up your opponents with your bare fists.

    That's a little extreme, but there are less absurd problems that use the same concept.
    An ant farm would probably be a swarm, so a single 'monster'...
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    Man, this is just one of those things you see and realize, "I live in a weird and banal future."

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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Please tell me, please tell me why?
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordgleam View Post
    (Though this does make hellocks invincible since they gain temp HP whenever their cursed enemy drops.)
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogmantra View Post
    Best.
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    Except that temporary HP doesn't count as 'real' HP for remaining conscious. :)
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by The New Bruceski View Post
    I think this is just my brain deciding to be pedantic, but is a square/creature adjacent to itself? What made me think about this is the Runepriest's runes:
    Rune of Destruction: Allies get +1 to attack enemies adjacent to you. (Includes the Runepriest since he's an ally of himself)
    Rune of Protection: Adjacent allies get resist 2 to all damage. (Does NOT include the Runepriest if he is not adjacent to himself)

    It seems odd that one of the two abilities includes the user and the other one doesn't. For another "hiccup" there's the Seeker's Emelental Spirits power:

    Hit: 1[W] + Wis damage of the chosen type. Until end of next turn any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the target takes damage of the chosen type equal to Dex.

    This creature is wreathed in elemental spirits that damage people around him, but is immune to the extra damage himself? If it is a creature larger than a single square, does it take damage (since it is now occupying a square adjacent to a square occupied by itself)?
    A square is not adjacent to itelf. As someone mentioned Rune of Destruction Affects adjacent enemeies; the runepriest does not get benefits because he isn't his own ally. Neither ability affects the runepriest.

    This makes Rune of protection a purple choice because it motivates people to clump together.

    Regarding Elemental spirits, the target size determines how many adjacent squares it will have; it doesnot specify a square but a creature. A medium creature will have eight adjacent squares. a large will have 12. So no, the large-y doesn't take any damage.
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    "an enemy is everyone who isn't your ally"
    Only a Sith deals in absolutes!
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e]Term definition: adjacent

    I guess that makes both you and WotC Sith, then.
    Quote Originally Posted by SkyBoundFencer
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