[3.5] Strong races in Gestalt

[Zovc]

Some members of my group are using Savage Species, and most of the members have LA races or racial progressions. I never really looked into these, because LA races don't fit into non-gestalt builds well.

What cool races or templates are there that suddenly become more usable in gestalt? What class would you couple with them?

[Grumman]

The Spellwarped template, for one. It gives you +lots to all the important stats, SR that increases as you level up and gives you free buffs and darkvision.

[demidracolich]

Well, the monster classes in Savage Species let you play monsters without LA. They are like regular classes so you still get hit die, BAB, and saves from them. Also check out this thread. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142724

[Critical]

Thri-Kreen Warblade...

[Ferrin]

Succubus with Dread necromancer, sorcerer, paladin of tyranny, hexblade, blackguard, Wilder, Warlock, Fiend of Possesion.

Some classes of the top of my head that work well for a succubus.

Otherwise a Troll Totemist looks pretty wicked.

[Goldfly]

Thri-Kreen Warblade...

Go Tiger Claw and you're golden!

[demidracolich]

Also go totemist and bind Girallon arms to get even more attacks.

[Yorrin]

I've done a Medusa|Warlock before with good results. Also a Shadow|Sorcerer is a fun one.

[Lycanthromancer]

Anthropomorphic bat works well for anything with wisdom, especially druid 20//Talashtoran monk 2/psychic warrior 18.

+6 Wisdom, flight, and possibly echolocation, for the win.

See if you can use your feet in lieu of hands (since those are subsumed into your wings) then go footbow and Zen Archery.

[Zovc]

Anthropomorphic bat works well for anything with wisdom, especially druid 20//Talashtoran monk 2/psychic warrior 18.

+6 Wisdom, flight, and possibly echolocation, for the win.

See if you can use your feet in lieu of hands (since those are subsumed into your wings) then go footbow and Zen Archery.

I'm definitely doing Something//Monk. I'm thinking Cloistered Cleric, since I won't want to wear armor. What is this 'Talashtoran Monk' you speak of?

I don't know if this character is going to make it, but after Monk 1, I'll probably try to do Swordsage 2 in hopes of getting double Wisdom to AC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Gloura is a great/fun race to use, and its racial HD and LA are less prohibitive in a gestalt game. Mineral Warrior from that same link makes just about any character unkillably tanky. Shadow Creature from Lords of Madness is also adds amazing survivability to any character, and Phrenic is also a decent choice for anyone. You can also check the Savage Progressions Archive for more options, Half-Fey is particularly useful. Something like a Phrenic Half-Fey Gnome Warlock//LA/LA/Enlightened Spirit with Magic in the Blood would be fun, especially since all of your racial 1/day spell-like abilities would become 3/day, psi-like abilities as well with magic/psionics transparency.

[Draz74]

I'm definitely doing Something//Monk. I'm thinking Cloistered Cleric, since I won't want to wear armor. What is this 'Talashtoran Monk' you speak of?

Tashalatora is a feat in Secrets of Sarlona that makes your levels in one psionic class stack with your Monk levels for most of the exciting Monk features. It requires a throwaway prerequisite feat, but is still considered a very competitive way to actually make Monk decent (albeit with no more than two Monk levels).

I don't know if this character is going to make it, but after Monk 1, I'll probably try to do Swordsage 2 in hopes of getting double Wisdom to AC.

Boo. Such a lame stretch of the rules. It certainly wouldn't be OK'ed under my watch as DM.

[Zovc]

Tashalatora is a feat in Secrets of Sarlona that makes your levels in one psionic class stack with your Monk levels for most of the exciting Monk features. It requires a throwaway prerequisite feat, but is still considered a very competitive way to actually make Monk decent (albeit with no more than two Monk levels).

I'll look into that, it sounds promising.

Boo. Such a lame stretch of the rules. It certainly wouldn't be OK'ed under my watch as DM.

I wouldn't call it a stretch of the rules. Ninja explicitly states that it does not stack with the Monk's bonus. Tome of Battle was printed long after that, so it doesn't seem to me like an oversight.

Are there any other cool things I can do with a high wisdom score? Psywar doesn't get Schism, does it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'll look into that, it sounds promising.



I wouldn't call it a stretch of the rules. Ninja explicitly states that it does not stack with the Monk's bonus. Tome of Battle was printed long after that, so it doesn't seem to me like an oversight.

Are there any other cool things I can do with a high wisdom score? Psywar doesn't get Schism, does it?

WotC is (IN)FAMOUS for that kind of oversights. also it is against RAW (Bonus from same source don't stack and since both of them Are called AC bonus technically they are the same source) and Swordsage wis to ac only works in light armor, while monks only work without armor

Also if you want a schism you might try either using expanded knowledge or ardent complete psionic

[Godskook]

I wouldn't call it a stretch of the rules. Ninja explicitly states that it does not stack with the Monk's bonus. Tome of Battle was printed long after that, so it doesn't seem to me like an oversight.

There's no oversight, Swordsage and monk bonuses do not stack.

Why?

Cause the rule is that bonuses of from the same source do not stack, and 'same source' is determined by name. In both cases, that name is "AC Bonus". Choose the better one that applies, and that's all you get.

[Gnaeus]

Any of the normally strong options get stronger. Stuff like:

Marrulurk/any skill monkey//any
Pixie//any caster or sneak attacker
Half Dragon Ogre or Centaur//Psi Warrior or any ToB

[Mongoose87]

Mind Flayer 15/ Something//Something 10/Illithid Savant 10

[The Glyphstone]

Mind Flayer 15/ Something//Something 10/Illithid Savant 10

You horrible, horrible person. :)

[Greenish]

Are there any other cool things I can do with a high wisdom score? Psywar doesn't get Schism, does it?

X stat to Y bonus. Psywarr can pick schism with expanded knowledge.

[flabort]

gonna use a lot of playgrounder material here.

Thri-Kreen 1/Vampire 2/totemist X/(Whatever is still required for Tiger Claw, if anything) Y/Warblade 17-(X+Y)//Evolutionist 20

All HD are locked at D12, due to Vampire Body, and it has all the vampire weaknesses, also due to ditto.
it has the thri-keen's 5 natural attacks, the vampires slam attack, has bound girilion arms (I think that's avalible at first totmist level. but if not, that's what the X is for), has Tiger Claw, and Thri-keen has poison on bite attack. what is almost garrenteed bite attack? vampire bite/blood drain. so, not only are you sucking out blood, your pumping in poison. add to that the evolutionist's mutations...

you may want these mutations (Evolutionist Class feature):
extra arm
fast healing
natural attacks (tentacle, tail, gore)
Improved reach (SPAM THIS)
rake (thri-keen claws (although the legs still limits him to two rake attacks))
improved grab (for as many natural attacks as possible)
poison (Dex damage, for as many natural attacks as possible, bite already has)
unholy toughness (vampire makes it so feat is not needed)
Create spawn (the more natural weapons you put this on, the more zombies following you around. depending on RAW or RAI, and how multipliers stack, gaining this 5 times gives you x16 or x5 your level in conrolable HD.)

add in a level of rouge one the Evolutionist side, and...
well...
Cheddar, anyone?

[Set]

Illumians are pretty much designed for multi-class synergy, and might work well as an LA+0 option for Gestalt.

But more in line with the monster as half of the gestalt, there's always that pixie warlock concept...

Ogre Magi with the Primal Giant template from one of the Eberron books // Warlock?

[Voice of Reason]

With regards to the Monk/Swordsage question, the Wizards.com sage stated here that they do not stack.

However, I question highly the interpretation that the bonus is an "AC bonus." The reason that the monk and swordsage features don't stack is because the bonus to AC comes from the same source, but nowhere does it ever list (at least under monk) that the bonus has a name. What it says is that "the monk adds her wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC." This is an unnamed bonus, and unnamed bonuses stack with unnamed bonuses from different sources.

[The Cat Goddess]

With regards to the Monk/Swordsage question, the Wizards.com sage stated here that they do not stack.

However, I question highly the interpretation that the bonus is an "AC bonus." The reason that the monk and swordsage features don't stack is because the bonus to AC comes from the same source, but nowhere does it ever list (at least under monk) that the bonus has a name. What it says is that "the monk adds her wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC." This is an unnamed bonus, and unnamed bonuses stack with unnamed bonuses from different sources.

Actually, as I have mentioned in other threads, the "AC Bonus" being the same source is patently incorrect... since the class feature for Fist of the Forest is Con-to-AC and called "AC Bonus", but the sample character is clearly shown as getting Wis, Dex & Con to AC.

If you want to call "same source", the source is your Wisdom Stat.

Which would mean that a Kung Fu Genius Chaos Monk (Int-to-AC)/Swordsage-2 (Wis-to-AC)/BattleDancer (Cha-to-AC)/Fist of the Forest (Con-to-AC) would be fine. Now, if you can find a way to get Str-to-AC, then you're in the win!

[balistafreak]

Tashalatora is a feat in Secrets of Sarlona that makes your levels in one psionic class stack with your Monk levels for most of the exciting Monk features. It requires a throwaway prerequisite feat, but is still considered a very competitive way to actually make Monk decent (albeit with no more than ANY Monk levels).

Fixed that for you. Yup, that's right, X levels of psionic class stack with 0 levels of monk to get X levels of monk abilities, namely flurry progression, unarmed damage, and AC bonus (both Wisdom-to-AC and the tiny +1 per five levels progression).

Personally I prefer two progressing manifester levels (better than recovered manifester levels from Practiced Manifester, as you get extra powers and exponential PP) to two bonus monk feats (basically only one bonus feat if you take Practiced Manifester) plus saves, but I can see why you would take the monk levels anyways for a considerably more gishy character. Just keep in mind you don't have to take any monk levels if you don't want to.

[Jack_Simth]

What's the best race? Depends noticeably on the level, and whether or not the DM lets LA/RHD fill just one "side" of the gestalt, or whether it affects both.

One I've had fun with is Phrenic/Ghost/Evolved Undead(With the remainder being one or two levels in Monk plus 2+levels in Paladin on that side)//Sorcerer/Arcane PrC's of choice. Vow of Poverty deals with equipment issues (unlike most undead, a Ghost has no alignment restrictions), and you get that nifty Rejuvenation special quality, which makes you *really* hard to kill. Charisma to AC twice (Deflection from Ghost, pick up Ascetic Mage to get it from Monk), Charisma to saves (Paladin, variant paladin), Evasion (Monk-2), fast healing (Evolved Undead), a large host of immunities (Ghost), incorporeality (Ghost), and the ability to dive into the ground makes things even better (especially if you take Flyby Attack, which lets you pop out of the ground, cast a spell at an opponent, and then dive back underground). At low levels, though, the build doesn't work: The LA is +8 at the low end.

[Voice of Reason]

Off topic:

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Actually, as I have mentioned in other threads, the "AC Bonus" being the same source is patently incorrect... since the class feature for Fist of the Forest is Con-to-AC and called "AC Bonus", but the sample character is clearly shown as getting Wis, Dex & Con to AC.

If you want to call "same source", the source is your Wisdom Stat.

Which would mean that a Kung Fu Genius Chaos Monk (Int-to-AC)/Swordsage-2 (Wis-to-AC)/BattleDancer (Cha-to-AC)/Fist of the Forest (Con-to-AC) would be fine. Now, if you can find a way to get Str-to-AC, then you're in the win!

Yes, you are correct. As I understand it, all of those things would stack. Note that the Sage states that the abilities mentioned (monk and swordsage) have the same name and ability. The First of the Forest (and other classes) have the same name but different abilities (con to AC, int to AC, etc.) and so they stack. Likewise, an ability from another class with a different name that grants the same "____ to AC" would stack, as it's from a different source.

On topic: If Savage Species is allowed, I've always been partial to the Tauric template because of all the fun combinations it opens up. One of my favorite characters was a Tauric Half-Ogre (half-human)/Griffon. Not exactly optimized, but if your DM will let you advance your monster hit die, you can be Huge by level 14 or 15 with some melee class levels thrown on top; works great with Large and In Charge/Knockdown and a reach weapon for battlefield control.

[Escheton]

it's no race but taking commoner/racial nonhd lvl mod, at lvl 1 lets you in the survivalist (I think it;s called) prestigeclass from the same book. No bab, but it makes that poisondusk, aasimar or catfolk pretty durable. Uncanny, evasion dr5/- and some more I think. Just take warblade or something on the other end.

[Zovc]

Anthropomorphic bat works well for anything with wisdom, especially druid 20//Talashtoran monk 2/psychic warrior 18.

+6 Wisdom, flight, and possibly echolocation, for the win.

See if you can use your feet in lieu of hands (since those are subsumed into your wings) then go footbow and Zen Archery.

DM cited this picture as to not allow my to use my hands while flying:

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...and apparently my feets doesn't have the motor control required to use a bow.

Any suggestions on how to fix this?

I was going to go Cloistered Cleric//Feral LA, but I might have to go monk to be a competent damage dealer.