Trinity Theurge

[Kobold-Bard]

Found this today, it's basically Mystic Theurge that combines Arcane, Divine and Psionics.

Now obviously this sounds stupidly powerful, but it does take 9 levels to get into and ends with a CL/ML of 13 in each one.

Is it usable/overpowered/breakable?

K-B

[PId6]

Considering just regular dual theurge classes can get you 9/9/9, highly breakable.

[Kobold-Bard]

O RLY? How so?

[PId6]

9/9/9 requires Ur Priest and Sublime Chord or Beholder Mage, but assuming those aren't allowed:

Wizard 1/Cleric 1/Ardent 1/Mystic Theurge 2/Ardent +1/Trinity Theurge 10/Mystic Theurge +4

Sanctum Spell for Wizard and Cleric qualification, Practiced Manifester for Ardent. You end up with 17th wizard/cleric and 12th Ardent (ML 16) which gets you 9th level arcane/divine and 8th level psionics. Seems pretty good to me.

[Ferrin]

Human Wizard2/Ardent1/Cerebremancer5/Ur-Priest2/Trinity Theurge10

Feats: Precocious Apprentice(H), Iron Will(1), Practiced Manifester(3), Spell Focus(Evil)(6) with the rest as free feats, I'd take Practiced Spellcaster at 9 myself.

Will get you 9th level divine spells, 9th level arcane spells, and 9th level powers due to the way the ardent learns powers.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Will get you 9th level divine spells, 9th level arcane spells, and 9th level powers due to the way the ardent learns powers.

Ardent does whatnow? I read it and don't get it.

[arguskos]

Ardent does whatnow? I read it and don't get it.

The Ardent gains mantles that give him a selection of powers, basically. It's a fairly complex class, but it's pretty good. I like it quite a bit more than PsyWar actually, but, I'm strange like that.

[Kobold-Bard]

The Ardent gains mantles that give him a selection of powers, basically. It's a fairly complex class, but it's pretty good. I like it quite a bit more than PsyWar actually, but, I'm strange like that.

I get that, but how do they get 9th level powers in Gestalt?

[Amphetryon]

I get that, but how do they get 9th level powers in Gestalt?

Powers for an Ardent are not tied to class level the same way that a Psion's powers or a Wizard's spells are, due to the way the class's abilities are worded.

[PId6]

I get that, but how do they get 9th level powers in Gestalt?

Unlike other manifesting classes, ardent can select powers based on his manifester level. Thus, with Practiced Manifester, you can start selecting 9th level powers as early as ardent 13, making it ideal for theurging builds.

[Kobold-Bard]

Unlike other manifesting classes, ardent can select powers based on his manifester level. Thus, with Practiced Manifester, you can start selecting 9th level powers as early as ardent 13, making it ideal for theurging builds.

Ahh, so it's poor wording. Thanks for the clarification.

[Keld Denar]

You gain access to powers from your mantles based on your ML, rather than what would be your spellcaster level for a caster. That means you can lose ardent levels, and as long as you take Practiced Manifester, you would continue to gain powers. Its pretty slick.

[PId6]

Ahh, so it's poor wording. Thanks for the clarification.

Admittedly, it's probably against RAI, but I find this way actually preferable since it makes multiclassing much easier for ardent. If only the same were true for the other psionic classes.

[Kobold-Bard]

Ok so shenanigans aside, using this class the way it's intended is it usable or a multiclass Samurai/Truenamer (=useless).

[Adumbration]

I think you should be able to make some sort of Bard/Psion/Cerebramancer/Ur-priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Trinity Theurge 9 for triple nines.

EDIT: And that's not shenanigans, even. Although shenanigans can be used if you want early entrance to cerebramancer, but that's not necessary.

EDIT 2: Without shenanigans you'll get divine and arcane casting at 9s, not sure about psionics. Probably close, though.

[PId6]

Ok so shenanigans aside, using this class the way it's intended is it usable or a multiclass Samurai/Truenamer (=useless).

Depends on your definition of shenanigans. Without early entry, ardent, or fast progression whatsoever, you'll probably still be better off than a Samurai/Truenamer, but not by much. If you just allow ardent manifesting, you can get 9th level powers and 7th level in the other two, but you'll suck for quite a while before getting halfway decent. The class isn't really usable without early entry, and is broken with.

[Kobold-Bard]

Depends on your definition of shenanigans. Without early entry, ardent, or fast progression whatsoever, you'll probably still be better off than a Samurai/Truenamer, but not by much. If you just allow ardent manifesting, you can get 9th level powers and 7th level in the other two, but you'll suck for quite a while before getting halfway decent. The class isn't really usable without early entry, and is broken with.

So stick to a high level game and use Ardent. Thanks.

[tyckspoon]

Ok so shenanigans aside, using this class the way it's intended is it usable or a multiclass Samurai/Truenamer (=useless).

Its level 4 ability lets you spend power points to pay off metamagic adjustments. Even with 'normal' entry (and this thing just begs for some kind of early-entry technique) you'd be looking at a 13/13 caster with the ability to pay off 49 levels worth of metamagic adjustments. So.. yeah, that's pretty alright.

Edit: Although it does require a high starting level; I wouldn't want to actually have to play through the entry levels without some kind of early entry ability.

Double Edit: Also I'm not really sure what this ability is meant to achieve

By 5th level, the trinity theurge has learned enough of the similarities between arcane magic, divine magic, and psionics to bend her abilities in favor of one or the other temporarily. As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, she may focus her abilities towards either arcane magic, divine magic, or psionics. Thereafter, she adds all her trinity theurge levels to either her arcane spellcasting class, divine spellcasting class, or psionic class for the purposes of determining caster or manifester level, as applicable. This ability does not change the number of spells the theurge can cast or her power point pool.

But if it does what I think it's trying to say (the triple advancement temporarily all stacks into one class for purposes of caster/manifester level) it would enable some pretty ridiculous psionic novas and/or Holy Word cheese.

Triple Edit: Also Trinity Tap is excellent action advantage, as well as letting you auto-hit things from range with touch spells.

So.. yeah. The needed levels to enter suck, but the class features are awesome.

[Captain Six]

The ardent is a funny case. I think that the way it learns power by RAW is actually RAI. The wording of how it gets access to power levels sounds very intentional. The mantles are gained and the power list grows as the class progresses through class features, not a static list, so it is very bad base class to prestige class with. Using the ardent in a theurge class is mostly helpful in terms of bragging rights or very specialized tasks like blasting, which the other class(es) would have handled just fine. However the power level learning rules for Ardent make it amazing in multiclassing. Dipping into it or dipping out of it is both easy and potent. Synergy is what Psionics do best.

[PId6]

So.. yeah. The needed levels to enter suck, but the class features are awesome.

Wow... I just realized it had class features. How in the world did I miss that? I guess all the Mystic Theurge classes made me used to just looking at the progression and assuming it wouldn't have any class features. Doh!

Upon review, this class is... extremely broken. In every way. Between Compensation (Yay Persist), Trinity Soul (boomnovadead), and Trinity Tap (What action economy?), there's so much broken potential. And depending on how you read it, Unified Theories can grant you Persistent Power, so yay more Persist! Or, for that matter, Linked Spell (how does that even work?). I can't see this class being used with anything remotely resembling balance.

[AstralFire]

If 3.5 showed anything, it's that power systems should have some inherent way to advance slowly even when not taking levels of that system (ToB), or else be designed as a class to take from 1 to 20.

The mystic theurge already sucks bad to get into without shenanigans, this is way worse. I think the basic idea is fated to be problematic.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

That homebrew is mind mage on crack - broken silliness as usual.

Anybody (especially surreal) can whip up some ardent abuse in like 15sec

The true holy grail is 9th's as a cleric, 9ths as a wizard/sorc, and 9ths as a psion. So far, I am the lone holder of that title.