No Feats for Psicrystals?

[Scipio]

There seems to be a lot of people on this forum who believe that psicrystal's get feats as they "advance". I could be wrong on this, but I just don't see anything to suggest this is the case.

Under psicrystal basics it says to "use the statistics for a psicrystal, but make the following changes" The only things mentioned are - saves, abilities and skills. Feats are not mentioned here. There is no advancement line for psicrystals, so they never advance on their own. The HD are equal to the owner, but they do not actually advance except where it says differently.

The common sense test (IMO) is that they would have specifically mentioned feat acquisition if it were true. As a point of comparison, the psicrystal is very similar to a familiar as opposed to say an animal companion (which does get feats). Familiars of course do not get feats.

Am I missing something?

[Jarian]

You are.

Psicrystals gain hit dice. Ergo, they gain feats.

Familiars do not gain hit dice. Ergo, they do not gain feats.

[KillianHawkeye]

This is the difference:

For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder)

Basically, the familiar is "treated as" having HD equal to the master's class level, whereas the psicrystal actually gets those HD (and all the benefits thereof).

[tyckspoon]

The HD are equal to the owner

It's that line. Unlike familiars, which only have effective HD for purposes of spell interactions, psicrystals get real HD. And HD bring certain benefits just by acquiring them- BAB, skill points, save bonuses, HP, feats, and ability score increases. Saves and Skill points are specifically referred to because they differ from the norm- psicrystals use the master's saves and ranks instead of their own. They don't have to mention feats specifically, because they don't have to mention things that already operate by standard rules.

[Lycanthromancer]

[edit] SWORDSAGE'D! [/edit]

Common sense says that psicrystals follow the rules just like everyone else.

Hit Dice: As master’s HD (hp ½ master’s)

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases
A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases.

[Anxe]

No, you're not missing something. Psicrystals don't get feats. People who say otherwise are like lawyers who follow the letter of a contract instead of the spirit.

[Lycanthromancer]

No, you're not missing something. Psicrystals don't get feats. People who say otherwise are like lawyers who follow the letter of a contract instead of the spirit.

We're following the rules. You're not.

We even quoted them, directly from the SRD.

[KillianHawkeye]

If they wanted familiars and psicrystals to be exactly the same, they would have written them exactly the same.

[Scipio]

We're following the rules. You're not.

We even quoted them, directly from the SRD.

As soon as someone quotes the place where full monster advancement is granted to a psicrystal, I will believe them. The text goes into quite a bit of detail regarding what psicrystal's specifically get. No mention of feats anywhere.

[Optimator]

As soon as someone quotes the place where full monster advancement is granted to a psicrystal, I will believe them. The text goes into quite a bit of detail regarding what psicrystal's specifically get. No mention of feats anywhere.

I believe it's the part where it mentions Psicrystals gain hit dice.

[erikun]

As a player and a DM, I would not allow the psicrystal to gain feats. As Scipio points out, the psicrystal is apparently supposed to act like a familiar (with different wording to prevent HD-dependent effects from always affecting the psicrystal first) and the monster entry does not give it any extraodinary feats.

Of course, others may play with allowing feats for psicrystals, so you can take this as my houseruling, if you'd like. I just find it odd that the psicrystal entries do not mention feats, when every other similar entry (Druid's campanion, Paladin's mount) does.

[Anxe]

We're following the rules. You're not.

We even quoted them, directly from the SRD.

"letter of the contract, not the spirit."

[Drascin]

"letter of the contract, not the spirit."

Now, I usually don't get into these discussions, but, if I may ask, what makes you think that what you believe was the spirit, and not the inverse? I actually hadn't thought of the possibility that Psicrystals didn't advance until I came here and saw people arguing about it. It just seemed pretty evident.

[Mugiwara Luffy]

They don't have to mention feats specifically, because they don't have to mention things that already operate by standard rules.

this.

it´s like when a creature has the outsider type, they don´t have to mention that they get darkvision

[Boci]

"letter of the contract, not the spirit."

And how pray do you know what the spirit is?

[lightningcat]

Now, I usually don't get into these discussions, but, if I may ask, what makes you think that what you believe was the spirit, and not the inverse? I actually hadn't thought of the possibility that Psicrystals didn't advance until I came here and saw people arguing about it. It just seemed pretty evident.

I saw it the exact other way. After all, they are psion familiars, and the greatest disadvantage of familiars is their vulnerability.

[jokey665]

I saw it the exact other way. After all, they are psion familiars, and the greatest disadvantage of familiars is their vulnerability.

Except they aren't familiars, and if they were... Psions would just get a familiar instead of having this whole new mechanic.

[Jarian]

Jokey beat me to it. I was being snarky anyway, so it's probably better this way.

[erikun]

it´s like when a creature has the outsider type, they don´t have to mention that they get darkvision

Actually, they do.

Now, I usually don't get into these discussions, but, if I may ask, what makes you think that what you believe was the spirit, and not the inverse? I actually hadn't thought of the possibility that Psicrystals didn't advance until I came here and saw people arguing about it. It just seemed pretty evident.

For me, it has been:
Wizard and Sorcerer familiars say nothing about feats.
Paladin mounts specifically say they gain feats.
Druid and Ranger companions specifically say they gain feats.

Psicrystals say nothing about feats, and they share a number of features with familiars. Furthermore, the two examples which gain feats (mounts and companions) have a specific HD advancement on their tables. Psicrystals do not.

[Godskook]

No, you're not missing something. Psicrystals don't get feats. People who say otherwise are like lawyers who follow the letter of a contract instead of the spirit.

*Checks self* Nope, not a lawyer.

I say otherwise.

And back up your claim that the 'spirit' of the rules means that psicrystals don't get feats. Otherwise, you're not really interested in either the letter or the spirit.

[Anxe]

Psicrystal is a similar ability to Familiar, Animal Companion, and Special Mount. Animal Companion and Special Mount specifically mention getting feats. That mentioning is curiously left out of Familiar and Psicrystal. Maybe they don't get feats?
Further evidence, the psicrystal in the monster section of Psionics Handbook only has one feat, it's bonus feat. It doesn't have any feats for it's HD.
The psicrystal is meant to be like a familiar. The familiar doesn't get feats, why would you think the psicrystal does? The psicrystal gets HD, so that it can have a higher BAB, not so it can get feats.

EDIT:
"Like a wizard's familiar, psicrystals are a psion's companion."

[Godskook]

Actually, they do.

Actually they don't:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubty...m#outsiderType

An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Darkvision out to 60 feet.

[Jarian]

Psicrystal is a similar ability to Familiar, Animal Companion, and Special Mount. Animal Companion and Special Mount specifically mention getting feats. That mentioning is curiously left out of Familiar and Psicrystal. Maybe they don't get feats?

If you're attempting to argue that they don't gain hitdice by the rules, you'd be wrong. If you're attempting to argue that they don't get feats because the text doesn't mention it... what? Does the Ogre entry mention that bigger Ogres should gain more feats for every 3 hit dice? I mean, seriously.

Further evidence, the psicrystal in the monster section of Psionics Handbook only has one feat, it's bonus feat. It doesn't have any feats for it's HD.
The psicrystal is meant to be like a familiar. The familiar doesn't get feats, why would you think the psicrystal does? The psicrystal gets HD, so that it can have a higher BAB, not so it can get feats.

WotC has specifically said that when stat blocks contradict the rules, the rules are always right.

[Yuki Akuma]

Psicrystals gain HD as their masters advance. They are not treated as having HD equal to their master's level.

Psicrystals are not familiars.

They do not have some sort of 'special hit dice' that only advance some things and not others. The entry says nothing about what their hit dice advance. Ergo, they are normal hit dice in every way.

[Drascin]

I saw it the exact other way. After all, they are psion familiars, and the greatest disadvantage of familiars is their vulnerability.

I dunno, I never saw them as being anything like familiars. Perhaps it's because of the way it's fluffed. A Familiar is something external, unimportant, more or less a pet with a couple tricks, something designed from its very inception to be a little independent sidenote. The way psicrystals are explained, they always seemed much more than that to me, more part of a character than the familiar. Hence, them having advancement together with their master just seemed far more intuitive.

To this add the fact that quite a few powers and feats in the very same book give the feeling that completely unlike familiars (at that stage. Decent familiar-enhancing spells came later), Psicrystals were very obviously at least supposed and designed to be actually useful to their owners, or at least mildly capable of assisting in some ways, instead of little useless fluff-balls, and the logic knot was made up in my mind. Simple as that .

EDIT: Multi-ninja'd. Teaches me to go get a sandwich in the middle of writing a post.

[erikun]

Actually they don't:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...=1#post8556651

You, er, just linked to your previous post.

Although perhaps I was misunderstood. Every outsider creature entry I can find lists Darkvision as a special quality. Every single one which I can find in the SRD. It seems strange that they would be so redundant in something like darkvision (which is stated elsewhere) and yet leave the psicrystals-gain-feats clause implied yet unspoken due to seperate monster creature rules found in another book.

[Yuki Akuma]

They never say in any other monster entry that they gain feats when they increase their HD.

Never.

[tyckspoon]

Further evidence, the psicrystal in the monster section of Psionics Handbook only has one feat, it's bonus feat. It doesn't have any feats for it's HD.

Alertness *is* the Psicrystal's 1HD feat. The (Ex) Alertness ability grants the feat to its master; it says nothing about the Psicrystal itself, and the feat on the statblock lacks the superscript B that would mark it as a bonus feat. The only place that feat can come from is the crystal's HD.

[Godskook]

Psicrystal is a similar ability to Familiar, Animal Companion, and Special Mount. Animal Companion and Special Mount specifically mention getting feats. That mentioning is curiously left out of Familiar and Psicrystal. Maybe they don't get feats?

Curiously, familiar is the worst comparison for the psicrystal because unlike the familiar, the psicrystal gains actual HD, which is more analogues to Companions and Mounts. Maybe the Psicrystal is like them?

Further evidence, the psicrystal in the monster section of Psionics Handbook only has one feat, it's bonus feat. It doesn't have any feats for it's HD.

The psicrystal listed there isn't 'finished'. Its also a non-advanced Psicrystal, suitable for a 1st level Psion(evidenced by the lack of higher psicrystal abilities, such as a Deliver Touch Power). Interpreting that to mean it doesn't get additional feats for additional HD would also mean it wouldn't get additional abilities, such as the aformentioned Deliver Touch Power.

The psicrystal is meant to be like a familiar. The familiar doesn't get feats, why would you think the psicrystal does? The psicrystal gets HD, so that it can have a higher BAB, not so it can get feats.

Where is this statement supported?

EDIT:
"Like a wizard's familiar, psicrystals are a psion's companion."

Not a primary source. For rules related to Psicrystals, the XPH 'wins' all arguments.

You, er, just linked to your previous post.

Fixed

It seems strange that they would be so redundant in something like darkvision (which is stated elsewhere) and yet leave the psicrystals-gain-feats clause implied yet unspoken due to seperate monster creature rules found in another book.

The existence of reminder text does not imply that reminder text is required.

[Anxe]

Alertness *is* the Psicrystal's 1HD feat. The (Ex) Alertness ability grants the feat to its master; it says nothing about the Psicrystal itself, and the feat on the statblock lacks the superscript B that would mark it as a bonus feat. The only place that feat can come from is the crystal's HD.

This is most disturbing... I am wrong! You are correct.

And as for Godskook, you're saying Wizards of the Coast isn't a primary source?