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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Warlock build help

    first of all, this is for the never ending dungeon crawl, so please bear with the level 1 that this character must start out as.

    so i wish to try out warlock. i dont know where the eldritch glaive or hellfire warlock is from, but i hear tell that they are the ideal ways to pump the warlock to its fullest. where can i find those, and is there a build out there that shows the level by level build for it?

    secondly, this is a gestalt game. i was thinking of going with a cleric on the other side. if i can last to level 9, i get righteous might, which i always thought was wicked sweet. would a cleric work well in this situation? if so, what way should i build this cleric? i always liked the sun domain, because Pelor is wicked sweet also (i played a ranger who worshipped him on more than one occasion)

    if cleric isnt a good way to go with this, what would be a better option?
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Hellfire warlock is in Fiendish codex 2, while Eldritch Glaive is in dragon magic. Believe me, if you're going to be getting into some combat, these are the best. hellfire warlock is even better if you can take the strongheart vest meld from incarnum, as it will deal with the constitution damage that hellfire does to you while you still keep the damage. Eldritch Glaive is absolutely incredible if you get up close to use it, and because it gets iterative attacks your best bet is to take a class with full BAB progression on the other side of your gestalt to get the most out of it. My suggestion is warblade if ToB is allowed, or barbarian if not, but any class with a good BAB is enough
    Last edited by Alvrick; 2010-05-24 at 07:46 PM.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvrick View Post
    hellfire warlock is even better if you can take the strongheart vest meld from incarnum, as it will deal with the constitution damage that hellfire does to you while you still keep the damage.
    Sadly this really doesn't work since it prevents the damage and thus goes against the hellfire ability. The better option is to take a level of Binder from Tome of Magic and bind the vestige Naberius which heals 1 point of ability damage every round.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvrick View Post
    Eldritch Glaive is absolutely incredible if you get up close to use it, and because it gets iterative attacks your best bet is to take a class with full BAB progression on the other side of your gestalt to get the most out of it. My suggestion is warblade if ToB is allowed, or barbarian if not, but any class with a good BAB is enough
    Warblade is a decent option however that will put you slightly MAD with warblade being Int based. However Crusader, which is cha based, is not a bad option especially at low levels where every hit with your Eldritch Glaive will heal you with Martial Spirit stance.

    Also there is some nice stuff in the Warlock Information Compilation
    Last edited by gorfnab; 2010-05-24 at 08:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by gorfnab View Post
    Sadly this really doesn't work since it prevents the damage and thus goes against the hellfire ability. The better option is to take a level of Binder from Tome of Magic and bind the vestige Naberius which heals 1 point of ability damage every round.
    I'll admit, I'd forgotten about Naberius there, but as far as incarnum goes the vest is your best option. technically, it's like damage reduction that works on constitution damage, and for a 1 level dip that's pretty awesome. the belt that makes you immune to con damage, now that cuts it off. based on the wording of the hellfire ability damage, you only can't use it if you're immune. with the strongheart vest, you aren't immune but you ignore most of the damage, which happens to be all of it in this case
    Last edited by Alvrick; 2010-05-24 at 08:29 PM.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Alvrick View Post
    I'll admit, I'd forgotten about Naberius there, but as far as incarnum goes the vest is your best option. technically, it's like damage reduction the works on constitution damage, and for a 1 level dip that's pretty awesome. the belt that makes you immune to the damage, now that cuts it off, based on the wording of the hellfire ability damage. you only can't use it if you're immune
    And here is where the debate comes in so I'll just quote the Warlock Information Compilation on this one (note the bolded part).
    Note: There are huge, vicious thread wars being fought over the legality and practicality of the two prime ways to heal/negate the Con damage: the incarnum soulmeld Strongheart Vest and the vestige Naberius. Everyone agrees that simply getting Naberius through a feat doesn’t work (you can’t bind him and get the ability healing). Everyone also agrees that taking one level of Binder and then binding Naberius works. But that loses you a level of warlock, which is the same that happens if you take a level of incarnate.

    The wars are over whether the vest, taken through a feat (which means it always reduces ability damage by 1) violates the class ability, which says “(if) you are somehow immune to Constitution damage you cannot use this ability.” One side says that since hellfire ever only deals one point of damage, the vest makes you immune to the hellfire damage, and therefore you can’t use it. The other side counters that DR 1/- doesn’t mean you’re immune to physical damage, and neither does this, and besides, flavor-wise, what you’re doing is siphoning off energy from the souls of the multiverse to your selfish ends, which fits the theme of the Nine Hells to a tee. We’ve been arguing since the class first appeared, and no consensus has been reached, nor does it look like it ever will. End result: check with your DM.

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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    That sums it up nicely.

    So, in the end, we suggest that the other side of your gestalt have either a binder level or a feat in incarnum, based on what your DM will allow, and taking the hellfire warlock prestige class ASAP. instant optimization of your warlock side, and you're free to twink out the other side

    For a more detailed rundown of how best to optimize a warlock, see here
    Last edited by Alvrick; 2010-05-24 at 08:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Heck, you could do a lot worse than just going binder//warlock with PrCs to flavor. Especially in a situation like an endless dungeon crawl. Pick up hellfire warlock and depending on how that lines up, see about entering Knight of the Sacred Seal. You'd be a pretty nasty customer with a lot of dirty tricks up your sleeve.

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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Firstly, in the NED, Naeberius does not heal ability damage you willingly take. Secondly, you must pay the cost in full, so Strongheart Vest is out.

    My advice? Take the Darkness invocation, and the feats Blend Into Shadow and At Home In the Dark (Deep?) from Drow of the Underdark. It's cheesy as hell, but the Darkness invocation is a spell like ability, so you technically qualify for the feats. Be a whisper gnome or something, and pump your hide modifier. You're now essentially undetectable, especially if you take Darkstalker for your third feat.

    For the other side, take something with Sneak Attack (since you'll be hitting flatfooted opponents almost all of the time) and UMD. Rogue works.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    Firstly, in the NED, Naeberius does not heal ability damage you willingly take.
    Source please. I don't see anything mentioning that in the ToM.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Source please. I don't see anything mentioning that in the ToM.
    same, and there's nothing about it in the Errata
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Source please. I don't see anything mentioning that in the ToM.
    It's a houserule specific for the game he's building this for, not RAW.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    And nowhere does it say that the cost must be paid in full. DR1/- to con damage doesn't make you immune (Which is the cut off point from the power by RAW) and if the character gets hit with some debuff that doubled all damage taken then that DR will not stop all of the Con Damage.

    Best I can see is house rules they play by. (Swordsage'd)

    But since the best cheese for Hellfire Warlock comes into play by using a few of the PrCs that can boost and continue Hellfire progression instead of "+1 level of previous arcane caster" not that big of a deal.

    I agree with making yourself almost undetectable and stacking Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack dice (Not just Sneak Attack), since they both work on flat footed foes, and you can do a bit of cheese to double stack their progression.
    Last edited by VirOath; 2010-05-24 at 11:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Source please. I don't see anything mentioning that in the ToM.
    You already got the answer, but for clarity, Neverending Dungeon.

    See "Rules In Effect."
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    ok, but if i gestalt with cleric, would i be able to use restoration (or i guess lesser restoration) to heal the damage from the hellfire if i go with that PrC? and does it also heal regularly?

    and if i go with cleric//warlock, with the plan on being supremely badass by bringing the powers of hell and healing myself for it afterward, how should i go about this? i was thinking whisper gnome, take the penalty to CHA and hope for the best? i dont need the charisma that much, but what would be the best way to go for this build?
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Consider going Warlock 20// X 5/ Enlightened Spirit 10/ Y 5, rather than trying to pull off Hellfire Warlock cheese. Enlightened Spirit is in Complete Mage, and everything it grants is expressed as a bonus and not as a progression to any other class abilities, so everything will stack when taking it along side Warlock. For leading up to that and afterward I'd recommend using Ranger, preferably Mystic Ranger (page 91) and taking Sword of the Arcane Order to prepare and cast Wizard spells from your Ranger spell slots. In that case, you may want six Mystic Ranger levels before taking Enlightened Spirit. Any race would be suitable, but I'd recommend using Hellbred from Fiendish Codex II, the flavor would fit perfectly.

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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Suggestions:

    1) NED is item-poor, with almost no way to get items you really, really want.

    To this end, you may wish to grab two levels of Chameleon for a floating feat, which you can then use to craft proper magic items with. This, alone, makes the NED *MUCH* easier. When you don't need to craft, then use it for either floating invocations or whatever other feat you may wish to have at any given time.

    2) Glaive is fun all by itself, no Hellfire required (although extra-spicy does lend some flavor to it). If you use the aforementioned two level dip in Chameleon, then you can craft Wands of Lesser Restoration. That negates the need to level-dip into Binder, although you'll probably be about a half a level behind everyone after crafting everything. Ride the xp wave!*

    3) If you are going to be going Hellfire, then you will need either Bloodline or Legacy Champion to further increase the damage output to maximize effectiveness.

    4) If you go with Darkness, then make sure to look into the Drow of the Underdark book for some nifty feats which let you do all kinds of things with Darkness as a Spell-Like Ability...

    * By 'Ride the XP Wave', I am referring to the fact that, by RAW, you gain more xp for being a level behind everyone than everyone else does. So you both require less xp to ding, and gain more xp per kill. In effect, you can end up riding about a half a level behind your friends, and crafting pretty much unlimited.

    If you do choose to go the item creation route, I highly suggest Artificer for the other side of your Gestalt for obvious reasons.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-05-25 at 12:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    *coughs discreetly*

    For those not familiar with it, the NED has an insanely high lethality rate. You'd be much better off trying to build your character as powerfully as you can for level 1, then worry about later levels. You can always recreate it at a save point.

    Edit:

    NED is item-poor, with almost no way to get items you really, really want.
    ...except for the magic mart that sells any item in any book for normal price at the end of each floor, you mean?
    Last edited by Jarian; 2010-05-25 at 12:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    ...except for the magic mart that sells any item in any book for normal price at the end of each floor, you mean?
    Since WHEN? At least, nothing like that ever showed up when my buddies all decided to play it...
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    This is the Neverending Dungeon.

    I think you're thinking of the World's Largest Dungeon or something.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    This is the Neverending Dungeon.

    I think you're thinking of the World's Largest Dungeon or something.
    Ahh, that may be the case... I may have been remembering WLD...

    Also, Glaive has a lot of uses, even at level 1. It's a melee touch attack rather than a ranged touch attack. Granted, it isn't as useful until you start getting iterative attacks, but it is still a very solid Invocation.
    Last edited by ShneekeyTheLost; 2010-05-25 at 12:28 AM.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    You, um... probably don't want to get into a melee with the inhabitants of the dungeon, from what I understand.

    People have been dropped from 40hp to dead in one attack in the first few floors.

    Yeah. High lethality.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarian View Post
    You, um... probably don't want to get into a melee with the inhabitants of the dungeon, from what I understand.

    People have been dropped from 40hp to dead in one attack in the first few floors.

    Yeah. High lethality.
    so... it's like the tomb of horrors: monster edition?

    that's not good. either make yourself immune to damage, or be a range combatant
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Well, put it this way. I'm currently playing a character that is, essentially, undetectable by everything I've faced thus far.

    I've still had ceilings dropped on my head. Literally.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    I'd go Warlock/Rogue. Most of the rogue abilities work very well, and this gives you a 2d6 attack at level 1.

    Point Blank Shot, gives you another +1 to hit, and +1 to damage in 30ft...and sets you up for Precise Shot.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Bah. If you are detectable or touchable and can't shrug off large amounts of damage easily, you are playing to amuse your designated DM.

    I had players that died 6-8 times in a row against a single monster (they ended up just rolling for both themselves and the monsters to see how long it will take for them to actually win.)
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    I you want to stick with the Eldritch Blast approach you should consider
    Warlock//Scout or Warlock//Scout/Ranger(Swift Hunter)
    This should increase your damage output (with feats like Ranged Skirmish(and Eldritch Spear) and Improved Skirmish)
    Warlock are fairly good at infiltration, Scout(etc) should help with this also.

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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    I'll agree that stealth would be a great direction for this character, get good Hide and Move Silently checks via Water Halfling or Whisper Gnome and be sure to take Darkstalker from Lords of Madness. Darkness could actually be a useful invocation here. Mystic Ranger would be particularly good for the spell Camouflage, available at level 2. I'd still recommend Enlightened Spirit over Hellfire Warlock for a gestalt character, especially since otherwise it's so hard to get extra invocations known, and the ones it grants are all so useful.

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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    I like the Mystic Ranger idea (for Camoflage,Mass Camoflage,Forest Fold).
    This this would give you a choice of
    Warlock//Scout/Mystic Ranger(swift hunter) for early damage boost
    or
    Warlock//Mystic Ranger/Scout(swift hunter) for early stealth boost

    Invokations that work with this.
    Eldritch Spear for any blaster build is fairly essential
    See the Unseen and Spiderwalk are classic least invokations for stealth.
    Lessers:
    Beshadowed Blast or Hellrime Blast mainly to get through lesser globes etc.
    Eldritch Chain for damage
    Fell Flight or Flee the Scene for mobility
    Voidsense can be ignored if you get scout 10 for blindsense
    Walk unseen is a bit of a waste IMHO.

    Beguiling Influence, Leaps and Bounds, All seing eyes and Otherworldly Whispers are all god for various skill monkey options.

    For Warlock//Rangers
    Serpent's Tongue to track by scent
    Call of the Beast for Summon NA usage.

    Thats the thing with Warlocks, always more good choices than you can take.
    You are going to be feat starved also.

    I favour later entry into Enlightened Spirit, once you have everything from Warlock that you need.

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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    I like the Mystic Ranger idea (for Camoflage,Mass Camoflage,Forest Fold).
    This this would give you a choice of
    Warlock//Scout/Mystic Ranger(swift hunter) for early damage boost
    Make that Wildshape mystic ranger while you're at it.
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    Default Re: Warlock build help

    Isn't Mystic Ranger a Dragon Mag variant? I thought no Dragon Mag was allowed?
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