[3.5] Starting an Incarnate Construct

[balistafreak]

So Incarnate Construct (from Savage Species) sent me into the tank about how I could use 2 free levels of templates to boost a character.

Then I hit a problem. What do you start an Incarnate Construct with? I can't really think of any good 1HD constructs off the top of my head - and I don't believe Warforged works, as they're living constructs, as opposed to merely constructs.

You don't keep your base land speed, special attacks, or special qualities, but you do keep your natural AC bonus and fly speed if available.

Secondly, there's a lot of templates out there. What templates can be applied to a plain ol' humanoid (because that's what you are now ) for the most mileage? I know there's a lot of bad templates out there, but surely there are some gems. They need to be able to make it worth being an Incarnate Construct as opposed to being, say, a Human with a lot of goodies already.

[Optimystik]

Saint and Phrenic are great templates.

As for 1HD Constructs... I have no idea. Have you checked Crystalkeep?

[Runestar]

The maug (fiend folio) is generally considered the best base construct. 2 racial HD, +3LA (which is reduced to LA+1 after applying incarnate). Very good physical stats and overall a good deal for ECL3.

[Greymane]

Phrenic Warforged.

[balistafreak]

Phrenic Warforged.

Reading OPs.

More seriously, Maug are kind of cool. I'd end up with what's basically LA +2, but able to be bought off by 6th level (right?) because it's actually LA +1 and a racial HD. Base land speed of 40 feet, and a jaw-dropping +7 natural armor. Don't get any of the special abilities, though. I'm not keen on the whole Two Weapon fighting thing, either, and I have to miss two class levels.

Come on, 1 HD constructs... there have to be some somewhere.

[TheLaughingLich]

and I don't believe Warforged works, as they're living constructs, as opposed to merely constructs.

RAW, it appears they do work. Warforged are Constructs with the Living Construct subtype. Therefore, if Incarnate Construct is applied, they become Humanoid with the Living Construct subtype, which means they actually retain most of their construct-like traits.

[arguskos]

RAW, it appears they do work. Warforged are Constructs with the Living Construct subtype. Therefore, if Incarnate Construct is applied, they become Humanoid with the Living Construct subtype, which means they actually retain most of their construct-like traits.

Actually, I believe the Living Construct subtype only applies to Constructs, or at least it should, so an Incarnate Warforged should logically lose the subtype.

However, RAW, yes, Incarnate Construct works on Warforged with no issues.

[Thurbane]

Questionable legality, but Effigy 1/2 Ogre Incarnate Construct is decent for a melee type (size L at LA +0).

[arguskos]

Questionable legality, but Effigy 1/2 Ogre Incarnate Construct is decent for a melee type (size L at LA +0).

Not questionable, illegal. Effigy has no listed LA (which is stupid, btws). Amusing though, no joke.

In this vein, try a Feral Half-Minotaur Incarnate Warforged. That's the baseline melee critter using Incarnate Construct that sometimes gets thrown about.

[Thurbane]

Ah yes, but I believe it could be interpreted that if all templates are added prior to character creation, the Incarnate Construct template negates the "LA -" of the Effigy template. It really relies on DM approval/DM fiat.

Essentially, the "LA -" has ceased to be before it is applied to your character, depending on the order of templates...cheesy, to be sure.

[arguskos]

Ah yes, but I believe it could be interpreted that if all templates are added prior to character creation, the Incarnate Construct template negates the "LA -" of the Effigy template. It really relies on DM approval/DM fiat.

Essentially, the "LA -" has ceased to be before it is applied to your character, depending on the order of templates...cheesy, to be sure.

Not really that cheesy, since it's actually worse than what I suggested (Feral Half-Minotaur Incarnate Warforged), but, given that LA - is an ill-defined term in player interactions, I'm chalking that one up to "whatever the DM says".

Of course, applying the Incarnate Construct template to a Warforged is highly abusable to begin with (take Feral and Mineral Warrior, for instance, or Dark and Mineral Warrior, or Saint if you're starting at a high enough level and then buy off a Feral or something; the list is endless). Oh Savage Species, you were so broken (see: Tauric).

[Tytalus]

Ah yes, but I believe it could be interpreted that if all templates are added prior to character creation, the Incarnate Construct template negates the "LA -" of the Effigy template. It really relies on DM approval/DM fiat.

Essentially, the "LA -" has ceased to be before it is applied to your character, depending on the order of templates...cheesy, to be sure.

That's not cheesy, it's not allowed. "LA -" means that it's not meant for player characters. Incarnate Construct changes nothing.

And if you are bending the rules like that anyway, why aim low? Use a big baddie for a base creature. Effigy Titans?

[Thurbane]

That's not cheesy, it's not allowed. "LA -" means that it's not meant for player characters. Incarnate Construct changes nothing.

And if you are bending the rules like that anyway, why aim low? Use a big baddie for a base creature. Effigy Titans?

Well, because titans are greater than LA +2 and have RHD. 1/2 Ogres (RoD) are LA +2 and have no racial hit dice. If an Incarnate Construct Effigy creature is allowed, the LA -2 negates the LA +2. Even if not allowable as a PC due to "LA -", it is allowable as an NPC.

I maintain that order of operations, template stacking and so forth does not mean that this is a clear cut "LA - equals non-playable" RAW situation...the waters are very muddy, and would require a DM ruling. Most sane DMs would rule no, IMHO...but then, they would probably say no to a Phrenic Warforged Incarnate Construct as well.

[Tytalus]

Well, because titans are greater than LA +2 and have RHD. 1/2 Ogres (RoD) are LA +2 and have no racial hit dice. If an Incarnate Construct Effigy creature is allowed, the LA -2 negates the LA +2. Even if not allowable as a PC due to "LA -", it is allowable as an NPC.

Not to derail, but I don't follow this logic at all.

Your seem to imply that incarnate construct is not applicable to creatures with racial HD or an LA greater than two. That is not the case.

And of course are "LA -" creatures allowable as NPCs/monsters. For those, CR matters and LA doesn't.

I maintain that order of operations, template stacking and so forth does not mean that this is a clear cut "LA - equals non-playable" RAW situation...the waters are very muddy, and would require a DM ruling.

I'm not sure where you get this from, but "LA -" has always indicated that the race / template / templated creature is not suitable for a PC.

Order of operations is not an issue either (it's perfectly clear in this case).

Once you apply that template, the creature ceases to be playable (it's LA becomes "-", as spelled out clearly in the template entry). And what is "-" minus two anyway?

[Thurbane]

Your seem to imply that incarnate construct is not applicable to creatures with racial HD or an LA greater than two. That is not the case.

No, not implying that at all, sorry if I was unclear. What I was saying was that a base creature with LA +2 and no RHD is preferable in the case of creating a character playable at 1st level.

I'm not sure where you get this from, but "LA -" has always indicated that the race / template / templated creature is not suitable for a PC.

Agreed. Agreed 100%.

But I'm saying that it can be read that the LA+2 from 1/2 Ogre, and the LA -2 from IC, = LA +0 and "cancel out" the "LA -" of Effigy Creature, particularly if applied prior to the point of character creation. In a previous thread on this very topic, several people agreed with my interpretation.

I'm not claiming that it is RAW, I'm saying that it's a possible reading of the situation after all templates are applied. Hence, it would required a DMs ruling.

[Machiavellian]

For those without LA, simply use baselines for mosters of that CR. ON average, you have 2x as many HD as LA (although exceptions exist)

[Tytalus]

But I'm saying that it can be read that the LA+2 from 1/2 Ogre, and the LA -2 from IC, = LA +0 and "cancel out" the "LA -" of Effigy Creature, particularly if applied prior to the point of character creation. In a previous thread on this very topic, several people agreed with my interpretation.

I'm not claiming that it is RAW, I'm saying that it's a possible reading of the situation after all templates are applied. Hence, it would required a DMs ruling.

I'm afraid I'm still not following why it would.

First, you take a half-ogre; his LA is +2. Next, you apply the effigy template (you have to do that before incarnate construct). His LA is now "-", and he's no longer a suitable PC choice. Incarnate construct doesn't change that: "-" minus two is not zero, it's meaningless.