Vorpal- How much is it actually worth?

[Rainbownaga]

In 3.0 it was broken, in 3.5 it seems pretty "meh". 1/20 chance of killing a target vulnerable to decapitation per successful hit.

Question: How much damage would it do to give the players a +1 vorpal (exotic weapon that noone's proficient with) at level 2? My logic is that pretty much anything is going to die with a critical hit at low levels anyway, and by the time they figure out how to get enough successful attacks with an exotic weapon, the pitiful +1 is going to be a limiting factor.

Selling it isn't too big a deal (since the 'all items sellable at half market value' isn't written in stone and it isn't too hard to justify a lack of interest) nor is one hitting someone they shouldn't (Which is actually kinda cool).

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It's probably not worth a +5 market modifier, but it's definitely a bit OP in the hands of a level 2 character. I suppose the proficiency issue balances that out, though. Just note that at later levels you often don't need weapons above a +1 enhancement bonus anyway, due to the availability of Greater Magic Weapon.

[Draz74]

In 3.0 it was broken, in 3.5 it seems pretty "meh". 1/20 chance of killing a target vulnerable to decapitation per successful hit.

Question: How much damage would it do to give the players a +1 vorpal (exotic weapon that noone's proficient with) at level 2? My logic is that pretty much anything is going to die with a critical hit at low levels anyway, and by the time they figure out how to get enough successful attacks with an exotic weapon, the pitiful +1 is going to be a limiting factor.

Selling it isn't too big a deal (since the 'all items sellable at half market value' isn't written in stone and it isn't too hard to justify a lack of interest) nor is one hitting someone they shouldn't (Which is actually kinda cool).

Shouldn't cause much of a problem as far as I can see.

[Ashram]

Not really broken, unless you find a 9th level cleric or a UMD-monkey who finds a scroll of Surge of Fortune... And then they get a free auto-decapitation so long as they can confirm a critical hit.

[lsfreak]

Considering the amount of damage output of dedicated blasters, shadowpouncers, uberchargers, Jack B. Quicks, swift hunters, and... I could keep going, a 1 in 20 chance of decapitation (no effect on undead, constructs, plants, many aberrations, and a non-insignificant number of other creatures) probably isn't worth more than a +1 enhancement. Depends heavily on the level of optimization of the game, though.

[Ingus]

Deep into the Magic Item Compendium there is a cheap system of automatic critical hit + automatic critical confirmation (you only need the latter). Add something to hit contact instead of normal and surge of fortune.
Then consider that there are two kind of creatures immune to decapitation: antropomorphic creatures and creatures without discernable anatomy. Only the latter are decapitation free, the former...
Imagine: decapitate a vampire, then put his head in your bag. Now, the rest of the body is still active, but how can he see, or smell, or hear? And talk with a vampire head is a really funny, funny roleplay. This require a bit of DM approval, but I definitely think it make sense

[Amphetryon]

Wounding as a +3 and Vorpal as a +4 is more in keeping with 3.x power levels, but it's priced based on legacy issues.

[mint]

You introduce an effect that ha a lot of potential to frustrate and as you say, pretty much anything is going to go down from a critical hit at a low level. Except the NPCs that you statted so that they would be able to survive a critical strike...
I think vorpal seems like a hassle.

[Greenish]

Imagine: decapitate a vampire, then put his head in your bag. Now, the rest of the body is still active, but how can he see, or smell, or hear? And talk with a vampire head is a really funny, funny roleplay. This require a bit of DM approval, but I definitely think it make sense

Vampires are specifically called as being affected by the decapitation.

[paddyfool]

A +1 enhancement? Everyone and their dog would take it, and everyone and their dog would also need crit immunity. (+3 or +4, however, might well be reasonable, since currently no-one takes it).

If you want your character at level 2 to have a Vorpal weapon, then fine, give it to him but have the weapon have some kind of epic-level curse that makes it impossible to sell or give away; it can only be taken in combat from its previous owner, or left by them to their descendents or something. Otherwise it'll break WBL into a million shiny pieces.

[Bharg]

Vampires are specifically called as being affected by the decapitation.

Depends very much on the scenario and the DM I guess.
Vampires are very fluffy creatures of darkness.

[Greenish]

Depends very much on the scenario and the DM I guess.
Vampires are very fluffy creatures of darkness.

Obviously anything can be changed by houserules. I don't think it's worth pointing out at every juncture.

Spoiler

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Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads. Most other creatures, however, die when their heads are cut off.

[Koury]

Obviously anything can be changed by houserules.

Well, in one of the games I play in, the DM changed that.

I just feel like that may be worth pointing out.

[lsfreak]

A +1 enhancement? Everyone and their dog would take it, and everyone and their dog would also need crit immunity. (+3 or +4, however, might well be reasonable, since currently no-one takes it).

"I decapitate you" and "I hit for twice your hit points over 3 attacks" are effectively the same, which is what the game slowly becomes starting around 6th level (when shock trooper comes into play) and reaching full-swing by 10th/12th.

[Greenish]

Well, in one of the games I play in, the DM changed that.

I just feel like that may be worth pointing out.

Then it also has to be pointed out that if you use the bell curve variant rules, vorpal is even less useful. If you have a rule stating that all threats are automatic crits, vorpal will be slightly better.

If you have houseruled that losing one's head is a minor inconvenience at the worst for most living creatures but is the only way to slay oozes, then vorpal is generally useless, but you ought to carry one in the party anyway.

If you have a houserule that the DM will buy everyone a pizza on successful decapitation, you should have at least one kicking around.

[Koury]

Spoiler

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Then it also has to be pointed out that if you use the bell curve variant rules, vorpal is even less useful. If you have a rule stating that all threats are automatic crits, vorpal will be slightly better.

If you have houseruled that losing one's head is a minor inconvenience at the worst for most living creatures but is the only way to slay oozes, then vorpal is generally useless, but you ought to carry one in the party anyway.

If you have a houserule that the DM will buy everyone a pizza on successful decapitation, you should have at least one kicking around

I was just teasing, of course. My bad that it wasn't clear enough.

[Greenish]

I was just teasing, of course. My bad that it wasn't clear enough.

I don't understand subtleties before my morning tea.

Anyway, free pizza on decapitation would be an awesome houserule, unless you happen to be the DM.

[paddyfool]

"I decapitate you" and "I hit for twice your hit points over 3 attacks" are effectively the same, which is what the game slowly becomes starting around 6th level (when shock trooper comes into play) and reaching full-swing by 10th/12th.

Ah, but there are melee defenses against shock trooper (readied attacks with spearlike weapons set against charges, AoOs with reach weapons etc. mean that his sacrificing all his AC is going to hurt him, and even boosting your AC works if you can get it high enough). Only miss chances and crit immunity offer any protection against Vorpal, however, and with luck rerolls, lots of attacks etc. it gets pretty murderous.

[Yuki Akuma]

"I decapitate you" and "I hit for twice your hit points over 3 attacks" are effectively the same, which is what the game slowly becomes starting around 6th level (when shock trooper comes into play) and reaching full-swing by 10th/12th.

Well, actually, "I decapitate you!" is harder to heal. It requires Resurrection, rather than Raise Dead.

[Koury]

I don't understand subtleties before my morning tea.

Anyway, free pizza on decapitation would be an awesome houserule, unless you happen to be the DM.

Morning tea?! It's like 4 am here and I'm still up. Maybe I'm just not as clever as I think I am when its so late.

It's ok though, we can still be friends (yay!).

[crazedloon]

Well, actually, "I decapitate you!" is harder to heal. It requires Resurrection, rather than Raise Dead.

who doesn't dismember everything they kill

[Ingus]

A cup of tea for Greenish, so

I think that the decapitation + holy wafers only stops him from regeneration, but it is a opinable call. but, just to say, apply it on a marut, a lich (so preventing him to being slain and reform from his phylactery) an elemental and so on.

This - to come back on topic - to support the usefulness of vorpal. I'll never ever give it to players at 2nd level. Also because at low/mid levels, it can be very nasty for monsters

[Greenish]

Morning tea?! It's like 4 am here and I'm still up. Maybe I'm just not as clever as I think I am when its so late.

It's not exactly morning here either, but I've never let such trifles stop me from having morning tea.

A cup of tea for Greenish, so

Yay!

I think that the decapitation + holy wafers only stops him from regeneration, but it is a opinable call.

Yeah, it doesn't directly state that the decapitation destroys the vampire, only that it affects them.

but, just to say, apply it on a marut, a lich (so preventing him to being slain and reform from his phylactery)

I'm not sure decapitation would bother a lich much. Many of them have done away with their bodies anyway.

This - to come back on topic - to support the usefulness of vorpal. I'll never ever give it to players at 2nd level. Also because at low/mid levels, it can be very nasty for monsters

I'm not a big fan of SoDs and other instant death effects. Luck should play a part in a battle, but one roll shouldn't be the deciding factor.

[paddyfool]

I'm not a big fan of SoDs and other instant death effects. Luck should play a part in a battle, but one roll shouldn't be the deciding factor.

If one player wants a real wildcard of a weapon, and is prepared to accept some cost for it, then fine. If the monsters have these, though, combat rapidly becomes not-fun for the players, hence why I oppose having it as a simple +1 enhancement.

[Runestar]

I could have sworn wotc mentioned somewhere that crit immunity does not negate vorpal...

I think the problem with vorpal is that it has too strong a possible effect - instant death (however rare that may be), so you need low odds to balance out a powerful effect. But +5 definitely seems too costly, maybe +4 or even +3 with some caveats.

Inability to control timing is also another drawback - it rocks if you roll a nat 20 on your 1st hit against demogorgon, but if that blow happens to be the final blow anyways, or if he is already very near death...

[olentu]

I could have sworn wotc mentioned somewhere that crit immunity does not negate vorpal...

I think the problem with vorpal is that it has too strong a possible effect - instant death (however rare that may be), so you need low odds to balance out a powerful effect. But +5 definitely seems too costly, maybe +4 or even +3 with some caveats.

Inability to control timing is also another drawback - it rocks if you roll a nat 20 on your 1st hit against demogorgon, but if that blow happens to be the final blow anyways, or if he is already very near death...

Crit immunity does not negate vorpal.

[Rainbownaga]

Ah, but there are melee defenses against shock trooper (readied attacks with spearlike weapons set against charges, AoOs with reach weapons etc. mean that his sacrificing all his AC is going to hurt him, and even boosting your AC works if you can get it high enough). Only miss chances and crit immunity offer any protection against Vorpal, however, and with luck rerolls, lots of attacks etc. it gets pretty murderous.

Shouldn't that be AC and miss chance? Crit immunity doesn't stop decapitation and AC can drop the chance to 1/400.

[Runestar]

I would also like to point out that when vorpal does not kick in, that is +5 worth of weapon enhancements which could have been spent on other weapon properties which actually do something. Such as the discipline weapon properties (ToB, adds +3 to-hit, +1), holy (DMG, +2d6 vs evil foes, overcomes dr/good, +2) etc.

Over the long run, you would likely be better off with more consistent benefits.

Maybe its benefit should be revised to something more consistent (and watered down), maybe bonus damage on a crit or something? I honestly cannot imagine anyone springing for the existing +5 vorpal ability as presented.

[true_shinken]

Anyone with Surge of Fortune would LOVE a vorpal weapon, period.

[The Glyphstone]

"I decapitate you" and "I hit for twice your hit points over 3 attacks" are effectively the same, which is what the game slowly becomes starting around 6th level (when shock trooper comes into play) and reaching full-swing by 10th/12th.

Of course, that brings to mind another thing to consider - as much as this forum does advocate it, there are still a lot of games out there with low optimization levels, where sword-and-board fighters are still the baseline. Generally, instant-kill effects like Vorpal become more valuable the lower your game's optimization level, because it's much less likely your standard attack routine will also oneshot enemies (exceptions do exist, such as Surge of Fortune).