OOTS #726 - The Discussion Thread

[The MunchKING]

When the 'admirable qualities' in question are her pert, round ... eyes? And it's the fourth sentence out of your mouth? Within one minute of meeting a person for the first time? And you're not meeting them in a singles bar? Yeah, I'd say that shows a lack of respect.

Especially after you just said "oops, I didn't know you were my kid's lover".

[Purple_cloack]

Tarquin, you subtle gentleman. nice comic again. We are going to see some dinosaurs!

[Nilan8888]

It's profoundly rude, but roguish types (personality-wise) are practically required to make outrageous comments to women they rightfully ought to be polite and respectful towards. It's part of being a sly charming bastard.

Agreed, I don't think Tarquin was trying to make anyone feel snubbed there. He was trying to charm Haley a bit into liking him since she's with his son.

It's of note he described her as 'my son's lover', I think -- although I'm not sure the significance of that yet. Maybe that's just his bardic side.

Tarquin is most likely evil. That probably makes a lot of people we've met... maybe not the bounty hunters but likely Malak and the Empress... evil as well.

But even though they are evil, let's not assume this bring the Order into immediate conflict with the Empire. It does on a personal level and I think most of the Order -- or at least Haley, Roy and Durkon -- would have serious problems with an overly friendly relationship.

However there is an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" dynamic going on here. Both the Empire and the Order are pretty anti-Nale and... although the Order should probably NOT mention the whole Gate-quest... the Empire probably has decided interests in NOT letting Xykon get a hold of the gates.

So actually at this point, whatever the Empire's alignment for the time being, of all the factions encountered so far they DO seem the least of possible evils. 'Evil' is not a single-code term. Just becuase one is evil there are evil acts that someone like Tarquin could consider beneath him. He might think of slavery of citizens and regicide of benevolent rulers as all in fair game, but the slaughter of entire villages or zombification of parents a la Xykon to be base and unseemly... acts that are to him, 'evil'.

Evil != being ok with any evil act, just as Good != being ok with any act of good. People are allowed to have personal biases and lines they will not cross within any alignment. They do not perscibe reactions to a given situation: being Good does not require Roy to immediately throw down and try to overthrow the Empire of Blood the moment he first sees a slave, and being evil does not require Tarquin to want to kill the Order or innocent people just because he's evil. Things can get more streamlined than that.

[FoE]

I wanna go on a dinosaur ride.

[Mastikator]

Hm, is Tarquin the Belkar replacement?

Well there's always hope.

[Swordpriest]

To be fair, that one's actually talking about the eyes there. The sonnet later gets onto the subject of her breasts and does so explicitly.

I know, but it was too good to pass up in the context of this thread.

[Doug Lampert]

True. I was using "gods" as short form for "the state of being that makes one's actions evil instead of good". A truly lawful/evil person is basically law-bound to be evil. If part of the empire's law is "we take anyone from this nation and force them to work in our fields for little or no pay because it is illegal for them to be full citizens", then he will stand for that evil way of doing things; even when Elan and Roy speak out against it. So, he would not be compatible with the team.

But, if he were lawful/neutral (which is what all true mercenaries are supposed to be [lawful for pay]) he can decide that Roy is paying him more, and can party with the team.

Nonsense. Read the definitions of Evil and Lawful and Lawful Evil, all in your players handbook.

NONE of them in any way imply that LE has to always act evil, or always promote evil, or offer ANY support to ANY other evil character or cause whatsoever.

You have a code. When possible you act within custom, tradition, and law. You are a selfish bastard, OR a racist, OR a sadist, OR simply callusly indiferent to the welfare of others. BINGO, Lawful Evil.

There are Lawful Evil characters UTTERLY CONVINCED that they serve the cause of Good and are themselves Good and that their every action is Good.

Actively serving Evil is in no way required, BEING Evil is all that's required.

[Dalek Kommander]

True. I was using "gods" as short form for "the state of being that makes one's actions evil instead of good". A truly lawful/evil person is basically law-bound to be evil.

No, that's putting the cart before the horse. A lawful evil person has evil motives for upholding the rule of law, even when those laws have some annoyingly good aspects.

Consider Daimyo Kubota. He was a classic lawful evil villain, perverting seemingly good legal principles like his right to a fair trial to serve his selfish, evil ends. He wasn't "law-bound to be evil", he used the law to bind his ENEMIES in red tape while he escaped through loophole after loophole. If he was simply "law-bound to be evil" all the time, he would have been caught and sentenced the first time he was inconveniently forced by his personal code of dark compulsions to murder someone in the middle of a state dinner, with everyone watching.

If part of the empire's law is "we take anyone from this nation and force them to work in our fields for little or no pay because it is illegal for them to be full citizens", then he will stand for that evil way of doing things; even when Elan and Roy speak out against it. So, he would not be compatible with the team.

That's a reason the Order of the Stick probably isn't going to abandon their quest to join the Empire of Blood, if that was ever even a question... but that doesn't prove Tarquin can't leave the Empire of Blood to join the Order of the Stick.

I don't actually think Tarquin will join the order of the stick... but in THEORY, his alignment isn't an absolute deal-breaker. After all, Belkar is rather obviously chaotic evil, and he's been in the party since the beginning!

If Tarquin joins, it will ultimately be to serve his own interests rather than the greater good... but even evil people have an "interest" in not being destroyed along with the rest of the entire world by an ancient god-killing abomination from before the dawn of time, so I suppose he could team up with the OOtS in an "enemy mine" capacity:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EnemyMine

But, if he were lawful/neutral (which is what all true mercenaries are supposed to be [lawful for pay]) he can decide that Roy is paying him more, and can party with the team.

A true mercenary distances himself from long-term national commitments because he values his own personal freedom and individuality. That's not intrinsically lawful, if anything it's somewhat chaotic.

It's hard to be a mercenary and a paragon of virtue at the same time, but even neutral mercenaries draw the line at committing atrocities like setting fire to orphanages full of helpless children. This creates a niche for truly EVIL mercenaries who aren't so picky.

[Scarlet Knight]

Interesting question, what is the exact divorce procedure in the Empire of Blood? Probably something innocent...

At this point, the argument is that, since he is Lawful, then he either legally divorced or disposed/murdered each of his at-minimum-five wives in turn, or he had one of the most substantial runs of bad luck with their health from accidents and disease ever.

However, I submit that our Western Civ bias is showing.

True, his harem may be just down the hall. And he may have never divorced Elan's mom if he had moved earlier to a land where polygamy was lawful.

[pendell]

It's hard to be a mercenary and a paragon of virtue at the same time

Erm ... isn't that pretty much what a traditional knight errant is? Not bound to a particular country or kingdom, riding around the world to rid the world of evil. "Mercenary" is just a slight modification of the principle -- where you don't take a vow of poverty and find an employer willing to *pay* you to rid the world of a particular evil. It allows for a wider selection of magic items and a more comfortable retirement.

Hmm .. come to think of it, what I've described isn't so much a "mercenary" as an "adventurer". The mercenary, per se, is a person whose sole concern is the money, willing to work for anyone provided the money's good enough. I'm given to understand true 'mercenaries' are extremely rare, as most fighting men are at least a little bit choosy about the causes they'll kill for.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Agi Hammerthief]

so what does the title refer to?

a) wifes
b) "eyes"
c) dino rides
e) all of the above

[wzeller]

However there is an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" dynamic going on here.

Far too few people take into account the wisdom of Schlock Mercenary, and it is indeed conceivable that the Order too will forget: "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less."


On an unrelated note, I suspect that the whole "Haley being thrown out a window" thing was created solely because Giant wanted to use the word "defenestrate" so he built the comic around it for a while just to get to use the word. In other news, I wholly approve. It's one of the greatest words of any human language, and even if the entire series of strips from day one had been written just to get a good context for that word, I'd still approve. Defenestrate for the win!

[The MunchKING]

B. At least traditionally.

[Cavelcade]

When the 'admirable qualities' in question are her pert, round ... eyes? And it's the fourth sentence out of your mouth? Within one minute of meeting a person for the first time? And you're not meeting them in a singles bar? Yeah, I'd say that shows a lack of respect.

I see Tarquin meeting Haley, and the box it fits into in my mind is 'professional relationship' -- colleagues, possibly enemies, possibly allies. I've known a lot of professional women very like Haley -- self-starters, go-getters -- and a comment on their anatomy was NOT a password to their favor. Far from it.


ETA: Let me put it this way. You go into a job interview. Your interviewer is a woman. Would you tell her how round her ... eyes ... are?

No?

Of course not. It's something you say to someone who's beneath you, someone you don't take seriously as a professional or as an adult. It ticks them off. As it did Haley.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Not necessarily. It could be something you say if you just don't care what people think of you - which dramatic people often try to achieve as it adds to their allure. While some types of women aren't going to like that, some will. This makes him neutral at worst and has no affect on his alignment at all at best. People can be jerks and still be good, people can be charming and evil.

This is not him looking for a job. This is not her looking for a job from him. This isn't a professional meeting, it's a meeting of two people who, while they may occasionally be in conflict with each other have no reason to believe they are right now. So he sees no reason to be formal and instead defaults to what is his natural manner with people, affable, complimentary and rougish.



Besides, after 4 lines of dialogue what else is he supposed to compliment her on? He can hardly call her a genius or a fantastic thief yet. :P

[Agi Hammerthief]

As a fan of The Order of the Stick, I was pleased to see this last panel of the latest strip. "Not surprisingly, ethical concerns cannot overcome the siren's lure of a triceratops ride" could almost be my motto.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2..._deep.php#more

[Nilan8888]

Far too few people take into account the wisdom of Schlock Mercenary, and it is indeed conceivable that the Order too will forget: "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less."

I've never heard of the 'Schlock Mercenary' wisdom, although that does sound interesting.

You're right though: by a percieved necessity of just plain having too many enemies and responsibilities to take on new conflicts... and by the fact Belkar might at first glance just LOVE the place (and then later hate it when he learns of all the crap rules), that V might have no inital objection and that Elan's already on his way to making himself at home... Roy, Durkon and Haley most especially might let themselves be slowly sucked into an uncomfortable alliance they consider temporary but might end up difficult to break out of.

I could easily see Elan's naiivete have him try to goad Roy into seeking the Empire's help over thier Gate difficulties and that the Empire might be motivated to temporarily help the Order because it has no interest in seeing Xykon or Nale have the gates -- but rather to take the gates for themselves, which at least half the Order would find only slightly less objectionable than letting Nale have them. Which is in turn only slightly less objectionable then letting Xykon take the whole thing.

Of course it might be that both Roy and Tarquin could see this sort of thing coming, and it might be a sort of more amicable understanding of what this would really lead to. Like what Xykon was trying to do with Roy at the battle for Azure city:

Tarquin: "You realize that after I help you find the gates and fend of Xykon and my other son that I'm going to take them for myself, right?"

Roy: "Oh yes. Totally preparing for that."

Tarquin: "Awesome. Hope to see you put out a good gambit for that. Tell you what, no promises but if it comes to it I'll try to just partially cripple you and the gang. consider it a Professional courtesey."

Roy: "Err thaks... I think."

[DSCrankshaw]

Hmm, I'm just thinking that if Nale couldn't manage to fit an entire message in 25 words, how's Vaarsuvius going to manage it? Then again, he did manage it with the Animal Messengers, presumably. Although, strictly speaking, we don't know how long the message was, since it was a Greater version of the spell. I'd imagine V's first priority would be to increase the length of the message.

[Nimrod's Son]

I doubt it. For one thing there's no reason to think Belkar is going to die until right before the end.

Actually, there's a pretty strong reason to think that.

Roy said here (at a point that Rich describes in DStP as being just over half-way through the story) that Belkar has just seven weeks left. And as Rich has just pointed out:

[T]wo weeks have passed since Roy's "seven weeks" comment--a few days to travel to Sandsedge, a week spent searching the desert, and a few days looking around the cities on the continent.

So we've seen two of Belkar's remaining seven weeks pass by in just sixty strips.

We currently have four books covering roughly two years' worth of events. It seems a stretch to think that there will be another three that cover just five weeks; rather, it's looking like Belkar will be dead by the end of this book.

[Draz74]

I love how, in a party that's otherwise so unperceptive (Spot/Listen checks), Haley's got such a keen, active Sense Motive skill.

I also thought it was cute how fast she made the comment, "You'll still be sexy when you have gray hair."

[MonkeyBusiness]

Dinosaurs! Yay! My morning is made more wonderful thinking about dinosaurs! Thank you!

I especially loved the ladies/gents loo style brontosaurus symbol on the door! I don't know why, but that made me laugh out loud. Like, maybe dinosaurs are modest and don't want monkeys barging in on them when they are in the rest room. Or maybe that's to indicate that the herbivores hang out there.

And I loved Haley's comment about it being good to know Elan will still be hot with grey hair - it's nice to have a preview of one's partner!

OMG hilarious ... give's 'lost in her eyes' a whole new meaning.

... they'd need to be quite a bit bigger than that. Rubens, not Edmund Blair Leighton.

MBiz
(Who is 41, red-haired, and almost as perky as a Waterhouse nymph. I refer, of course, to my eyes... though perhaps not exclusively. Thanks mom for the lovely pair of gems you gave me! X O)

[SPoD]

We currently have four books covering roughly two years' worth of events. It seems a stretch to think that there will be another three that cover just five weeks; rather, it's looking like Belkar will be dead by the end of this book.

The same thread confirms that a third of Paladin Blues (the trial scene) and all of War and XPs takes place in a little over a week. Dungeon Crawlin' Fools takes place over a few days at most. Don't Split the Party taking almost a year is the exception, not the rule.

At the pace of every book but the most recent one, we could have four or five more books before Belkar dies.

[brionl]

Yeah, we mammals do love dinosaurs. I just hope the dinosaurs aren't a lie...

Great comic Rich.

Later there will be delicious chocolate dinosaurs!

[slayerx]

And in this strip, Haley reminds forum readers of a few facts they have been glossing over and not to get too disillusioned by Tarquin's behavior

[Cealocanth]

I like dinosaurs! Although I don't think that's what the title is talking about...

[Dalek Kommander]

ETA: Let me put it this way. You go into a job interview. Your interviewer is a woman. Would you tell her how round her ... eyes ... are?

No, but only because it's tactless, which I've already conceded.

Of course not. It's something you say to someone who's beneath you, someone you don't take seriously as a professional or as an adult.

No, that ISN'T something I would say to someone I consider beneath me, and not for lack of knowing anyone I don't take seriously as a professional or as an adult... I just can't get over the hurdle of how utterly TACTLESS it would be.

Tactlessness is no more reliable as a sign of evil than tactfulness is reliable as a sign of goodness.

It ticks them off. As it did Haley.

Yeah, because it's tactless.

[Nimrod's Son]

The same thread confirms that a third of Paladin Blues (the trial scene) and all of War and XPs takes place in a little over a week. Dungeon Crawlin' Fools takes place over a few days at most. Don't Split the Party taking almost a year is the exception, not the rule.

At the pace of every book but the most recent one, we could have four or five more books before Belkar dies.

It's possible, but seems unlikely to me. For the first book-and-a-half, very little of importance to the larger plot happened at all, and the third is largely about a single (particularly action-packed) event. The plot has branched out considerably since then. If two weeks have flown by already just on the Order's travels across the desert, I'd be very surprised if all the many loose ends get tied up within another five.

[HandofShadows]

Far too few people take into account the wisdom of Schlock Mercenary, and it is indeed conceivable that the Order too will forget: "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more, no less."

Thats actually from abook named "The Seven Habits Of Highly Effective Pirates". Which most everyone in the Schlockvers seesm to have read.

[Dvandemon]

How can you pretend he was about to compliment your "perky and round eyes" when your eyes aren't round?

Maybe her, um, "eyes" follow the same perspective as her um, "other eyes"?

[Hendel]

Yeah, we mammals do love dinosaurs. I just hope the dinosaurs aren't a lie...

Great comic Rich.

I love the double entendre of the title.

As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, yes, we mammals seem to really like dinosaurs. However, there is another feature that is specifically mammalian in nature that we (or at least we males) can't seem to get enough of and we are not talking about eyes. In fact, the word "mammary" comes to mind...

Oh yeah for the Shakespeare lovers out there, it seems the eyes are not all he points out as well.

#130
My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
If snow be white, why then her breasts are dun;

[Santiago]

Hooray!