Fighters and Kobolds and Trolls, Oh My! [3.5 D&D thought experiments]

[Fortuna]

EDIT: This thread has been renamed and its purpose has changed since it first arrived on these forums. Below is the initial purpose of this thread, as well as a new challenge suggested by Eldan and any others that materialize. Please, try to keep this reasonable: I dislike involving wizards etc. in this kind of idea, particularly at the extremes of optimization. My personal preference is core-only.

The Original Challenge (Final answer: approx. 42000)

Spoiler

Show

Now, as sucky as a Fighter 20 is, they're still miles better than a Kobold Warrior 1. That's something we can all agree on (barring stupid cheese). But how much better?

Given only a single non-magical weapon, a single non-magical suit of armor and optionally a single non-magical shield, how many Kobold Warrior 1s can a Fighter 20 kill, on average, if they rush him in a swarm?

EDIT: although the idea was clear in my mind, I can see that it was not clear in my post. Thus, here are the rules in full.

The Fighter

The fighter must be human, must have no non-core feats, skills, or other additions, must have ONLY:
One (1) non-magical weapon of choice, from the core ruleset.
One (1) non-magical suit of armor of choice, from the core ruleset.
One (1) non-magical shield of choice, from the core ruleset.
The fighter may forgo any of these three options at the beginning of the combat. The fighter is built using a 32 point buy, and has no constraints beyond those listed here.

EDIT: Due to ridiculousness, these items must be sized for a medium character and worn at the beginning of the challenge.

The Kobolds

The kobolds are exactly as in the SRD entry, with NO variation. Their tactics will be:
Attack the fighter in melee, if possible.
Otherwise, move to be able to attack the fighter in melee next round, if possible.
Otherwise, move to be able to attack the fighter in melee as soon as possible.
If within charge range, but unable to attack for whatever reason, attack with slings.
Whenever a kobold dies, its corpse instantly vanishes without a trace.

The Arena

The fighter begins at the centre of a 300'x300' arena. At the end of each round, kobolds appear in every unoccupied edge square of the arena. The arena is unexitable due to Magic.

EDIT: Due to ridiculousness, the arena is a cube composed of walls of force which is located on the Prime Material Plane, with atmospheric conditions typical to approximately ten meters above sea level at the equator of the Earth. It is empty apart from fighter and kobolds.

The Challenge

The fighter is to directly kill (that is, make an attack roll against and deal sufficient damage thereby to render dead) as many kobolds as possible.

Eldan's Challenge (Trolls vs. Fighter) Unanswered!

Spoiler

Show

The Arena

The arena is an infinite plain, wide open.

The Fighter

The fighter must be human, must have no non-core feats, skills, or other additions, must have ONLY:
One (1) medium non-magical weapon of choice, from the core ruleset.
One (1) medium non-magical suit of armor of choice, from the core ruleset.
One (1) lit torch.
The fighter may forgo any of these three options at the beginning of the combat. The fighter is built using a 32 point buy, and has no constraints beyond those listed here.

The Trolls

There are three trolls, forming the points of an equilateral triangle, each one 60' away from the fighter. The trolls' tactics are unspecified (and therefore fair game). Each round, one new troll appears sixty feet away from the fighter.

The Challenge

The fighter is to directly kill (that is, make an attack roll against and deal sufficient damage thereby to render dead) as many trolls as possible.

[Zovc]

Now, as sucky as a Fighter 20 is, they're still miles better than a Kobold Warrior 1. That's something we can all agree on (barring stupid cheese). But how much better?

Given only a single non-magical weapon, a single non-magical suit of armor and optionally a single non-magical shield, how many Kobold Warrior 1s can a Fighter 20 kill, on average, if they rush him in a swarm?

The warrior can probably kill an infinite number of them with Great Cleave. Attacks of opportunity and whatnot... They can't hit him... etc...

[kamikasei]

Arbitrarily many, I'd say. The kobolds aren't going to have more than +10 AC, so the fighter should be hitting them on anything but a 1, and doing enough damage at a minimum to kill them in one blow. The kobolds will have a very low chance of hitting the fighter and very low average damage even if they do connect. The fighter could have heavy fortification armor or a shield, negating crits, and fast healing, perhaps above the average damage the kobolds are dealing.

Or did you mean the fighter was the one with the non-magical armor, weapon, and shield?

[Tavar]

Using the feats to get reach(the aberrant feats), exotic weapon prof spied chain, the whirlwind attack line, shape soulmeld:Astral Vambraces, Bonus Essenia, any 2 incarnum feats(for the extra essentia)...He can kill an infinite number.

[Fortuna]

OK, I understand that what I meant was not what I asked...

The kobolds are exactly as in their MM entry. The Fighter is any core-only human fighter 20 you care to build, but with the equipment restrictions in the first post.

[Kaiyanwang]

Can I ask what you want to prove with this?

[Fortuna]

Can I ask what you want to prove with this?

I am merely satisfying my own curiosity.

[Zovc]

OK, I understand that what I meant was not what I asked...

The kobolds are exactly as in their MM entry. The Fighter is any core-only human fighter 20 you care to build, but with the equipment restrictions in the first post.

Single Non-Magic Weapon: Spiked Chain

Combat Expertise

Great Cleave (and its prerequisites)

Whirlwind Attack

...and he should be good.

Edit: Incidentally, the most strategic formation for the kobolds to attack the fighter in would probably be a straight line, giving him the fewest targets for his great cleave off of attacks of opportunity.

Of course, I don't think kobolds would simply barrel into a fighter knowing that only certain death awaited them.

tl;dr: 'One does not simply walk into a level 20 fighter.'

[Adumbration]

Let's see now. A 20th level fighter, on the average, has 10+19x5.5 + 20x7 = 254 hitpoints. Maybe a little bit more, if he's invested a lot of money into tomes. His AC can be considered to be high enough for the kobolds to hit only on a natural 20, but he likely also has heavy fortification - negating the extra damage, but not the automatical hit.

It takes approximately 58 hits of a small heavy crossbow to take down the fighter, and so it takes approximately 1160 attack rolls from the kobolds to kill the fighter.

Depending on the arena, the fighter can take anything from 0 (when the fighter is situated in the bottom of an open mine with all the kobolds conveniently situated within the range) to... eh, can't be bothered to calculate.

We need someone really good with math to figure it out.

[Fortuna]

Let's see now. A 20th level fighter, on the average, has 10+19x5.5 + 20x7 = 254 hitpoints. Maybe a little bit more, if he's invested a lot of money into tomes. His AC can be considered to be high enough for the kobolds to hit only on a natural 20, but he likely also has heavy fortification - negating the extra damage, but not the automatical hit.

It takes approximately 58 hits of a small heavy crossbow to take down the fighter, and so it takes approximately 1160 attack rolls from the kobolds to kill the fighter.

Depending on the arena, the fighter can take anything from 0 (when the fighter is situated in the bottom of an open mine with all the kobolds conveniently situated within the range) to... eh, can't be bothered to calculate.

We need someone really good with math to figure it out.

Except that the Kobold entry has them using spears, and therefore the kobolds are using spears. That makes it even more complicated.

[Eldan]

Well. Let's see.

Core only, we start with an elf. Dex 20. Add 4 points from level ups to that, he can have Dex 24. 7 AoOs per turn. With a spiked chain, he should therefore kill seven kobolds per turn before they can approach him for melee combat.

That assumes they use melee of course.

So, if about 10 kobolds can get in range per turn... three should be able to attack. With his high dex, the fighter will probably use light armour, so his AC won't actually be that high. (Note, however, that even with heavy armour, it won't get very high without magic.) AC: probably only about 19-20, sadly.

Meaning the kobolds can hit on a 19. 10% chance to hit.

Still takes a while. It's much easier with ranged combat, though.

[Saph]

There's no point doing the math, because the fighter's also going to have access via his 760,000 gp of equipment to healing magic, invisibility magic, and probably a method of teleportation as well. He can kill an arbitrarily large number of kobold warriors.

A 20th-level fighter may be weak by the standards of a 20th-level full caster, but he's still ridiculously powerful by the standards of 1st-level NPCs.

[Eldan]

Look at the OP again: no magical equipment.

[Saph]

*checks*

A fighter can't get beyond level 10 without magical equipment, much less to level 20. That's a bit arbitrary.

[Kaiyanwang]

There's no point doing the math, because the fighter's also going to have access via his 760,000 gp of equipment to healing magic, invisibility magic, and probably a method of teleportation as well. He can kill an arbitrarily large number of kobold warriors.

A 20th-level fighter may be weak by the standards of a 20th-level full caster, but he's still ridiculously powerful by the standards of 1st-level NPCs.

This. I see that the OP says no equip, and this can happen, but is situational.

I could go on saying that the kobolds are not swarming the fighter, but are trying to make in fall in their traps.

This is why I asked what we could actually prove.

[Adumbration]

Except that the Kobold entry has them using spears, and therefore the kobolds are using spears. That makes it even more complicated.

Oh. My mistake. I misread the OP so that the kobolds had only the non-magical weapon/shield/etc.

You know, in that case it would be a valid tactic for the kobolds to start by sundering his weapon, armor and shield. That would lower his AC to be reliant on his dexterity, and allow hits... let's say 1/4 time. The fighter might have improved unarmed strike, and the kobolds have very little hp, so it wouldn't necessarily reduce the kill rate so much, but it would speed up the process significantly.

Next step would be to trip the bastard and stand around him, taking attacks of opportunity.

[Fortuna]

Well. Let's see.

Core only, we start with an elf. Dex 20. Add 4 points from level ups to that, he can have Dex 24. 7 AoOs per turn. With a spiked chain, he should therefore kill seven kobolds per turn before they can approach him for melee combat.

That assumes they use melee of course.

So, if about 10 kobolds can get in range per turn... three should be able to attack. With his high dex, the fighter will probably use light armour, so his AC won't actually be that high. (Note, however, that even with heavy armour, it won't get very high without magic.) AC: probably only about 19-20, sadly.

Meaning the kobolds can hit on a 19. 10% chance to hit.

Still takes a while. It's much easier with ranged combat, though.

Look at the OP again: Human only.

[Zovc]

*checks*

A fighter can't get beyond level 10 without magical equipment, much less to level 20. That's a bit arbitrary.

I agree that it is absurdly crippling to a fighter (of all classes) to say "you can't have any magic goodies," but I still think the fighter is fine.

[kamikasei]

Yeah, a lack of magical equipment makes this essentially meaningless. Too much of a high-level character's power, especially for fighters, is bound up in their gear. No healing? No miss chances? No enhancement bonuses to anything?

It's also so distorted a situation that the best options for the fighter would be poor choices in most other situations - for example, Great Cleave. With full plate, a large shield, a longsword, Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack etc. the kobolds should be dealing an average of 1-5 damage each round and then all dying in one hit to be replaced by a new wave - and hell, since the fighter likely has higher initiative they're probably not even getting those attacks at all.

[Adumbration]

Disarm and sunder are the kobolds' best friends here. They work, too.

EDIT: The second wave can spend their actions feinting the fighter, too, for flat-footed goodness.

[Ossian]

I don't get the tie between level and "must have magic equipment".

You have Conan as a level 20 (say) fight and X Kobolds, let's do the math.

OR

You have "Anime Fighter Something" 20th level fighter. He has 760,000 GP worth of magic items. The a wizard of appropriate level wants to toy with him and pits him in an arena, with nothing but:

1 weapon
1 armor
1 shield (if desired)

All non magical.

O.

[Eldan]

The problem is, really, that fighters, in order to remain even remotely capable in combat, need powerful weapons and armour.

There is, in DnD, barely any way to increase your armour nonmagically, especially in core. That means his AC will remain at or below 20 (best case), with full plate and decent dexterity, or leather and enormous dexterity. Which means the kobolds still have decent chances to hit, especially if half of them use aid another and there's flanking involved.
If the kobolds have +5 to hit from flanking and aid, they suddenly hit with 30% of their hits.

Of course the fighter can kill any number of them in his turn. But he can't defend himself against them.

[Ossian]

The problem is, really, that fighters, in order to remain even remotely capable in combat, need powerful weapons and armour.

There is, in DnD, barely any way to increase your armour nonmagically, especially in core. That means his AC will remain at or below 20 (best case), with full plate and decent dexterity, or leather and enormous dexterity. Which means the kobolds still have decent chances to hit, especially if half of them use aid another and there's flanking involved.
If the kobolds have +5 to hit from flanking and aid, they suddenly hit with 30% of their hits.

Of course the fighter can kill any number of them in his turn. But he can't defend himself against them.

Well, I guess the question from the OP was not "is it smart to go Fighter 20" or "is this a fair fight?". More like: how many can he kill? Sure the math is tough, but we are talking scores of the little buggers :)

[paddyfool]

Disarm and sunder are the kobolds' best friends here. They work, too.

I thought about that, but I don't think 20s and 1s are autosuccesses or failures on these opposed attack rolls, so assuming the fighter's at least medium sized, he should have at least a +23 on them (+19 for BAB, +4 for size difference, before you get into the likely stat difference) and thus be unable to lose (especially as Kobold Warrior 1s can't get Improved Sunder or Improved Disarm unless you're allowing flaws)
.

EDIT: The second wave can spend their actions feinting the fighter, too, for flat-footed goodness.

This might actually work, since he's unlikely to have many ranks in Sense Motive.

EDIT: On the AC, I think about the best he's likely to have is +8 (mithril full plate) +3 (dex) +1 (buckler; he can take a -1 to hit and still only miss on 1s), for a total of 22.

[Eldan]

Core only, with a spiked chain, it would be 6 for AoOs and up to 24 standing within reach. Per turn. He lives for probably about 15-20 turns before they kill him. Makes up to 600 kobolds. Pretty impressive.

Edit: they have slings. He's dead much earlier. How many kobolds can fit in 50 ft. range? They hit on a 16, deal 1 damage, in addition to the melee rush to keep him busy.

[Runestar]

Or let's try this in reverse, how can we optimize kobold warrior1 to actually be of some threat to a fighter20?

First thing which comes to mind is the ritual which grants them a 1st lv SLA. Take magic missile, which deals 1d4+1 damage (averaging 3.5 damage). A typical human fighter20 with 20con will have 220hp. So if we have 68 kobolds ready standard actions to hit the fighter with magic missiles...

[Adumbration]

Or let's try this in reverse, how can we optimize kobold warrior1 to actually be of some threat to a fighter20?

First thing which comes to mind is the ritual which grants them a 1st lv SLA. Take magic missile, which deals 1d4+1 damage (averaging 3.5 damage). A typical human fighter20 with 20con will have 220hp. So if we have 68 kobolds ready standard actions to hit the fighter with magic missiles...

Ohhh no. Take Power word: Pain and Mortalbane couple of times.

EDIT: Damn, forgot the hp limitation on the power word. Oh well, mortalbane works still.

[paddyfool]

Or let's try this in reverse, how can we optimize kobold warrior1 to actually be of some threat to a fighter20?

First thing which comes to mind is the ritual which grants them a 1st lv SLA. Take magic missile, which deals 1d4+1 damage (averaging 3.5 damage). A typical human fighter20 with 20con will have 220hp. So if we have 68 kobolds ready standard actions to hit the fighter with magic missiles...

Clever. What if, however, he has an SLA of "Shield"?

[Oslecamo]

I must point out to adamantine fullplate, wich grants DR3, but isn't magic

A spear wielding kobold can deals around 1-4 damage. And the possibility of dealing 4 damage is 1/20x1/6=1/120. Less than 1% of the attacks will even scratch the fighter's skin. Slings just bounce out of him.

If we can get another point of DR in there the kobolds can't hurt him at all.

For the lulz I suget an intimidate fighter wich makes the kobolds turn against each other.

[Johel]

Edit: they have slings. He's dead much earlier. How many kobolds can fit in 50 ft. range? They hit on a 16, deal 1 damage, in addition to the melee rush to keep him busy.

This.

Also, sling being a ranged weapon, the range is actually 500 feet.
Sure, they'll get an aweful malus to hit...but a natural 20 is still a natural 20.